Talk:Domestic sheep

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[edit] disambiguation

The following links need a disambig:
afro-caribbean
browsing
faroese
fermentation
homogenous
hypoxia
itch mite
lamb chops
migratory
native american
overhead
tunisian
Randomblue (talk) 19:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC).
N.B. I'm quite surprised there are so many disambig for such a recent featured article.

There is no applicable disambig for itch mite. Wikipedia doesn't have an article on the exact species. VanTucky 19:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
What about the other links? Randomblue (talk) 16:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chronological problem

How could Robert Bakewell (farmer), who died in 1795, be "influenced by the work of Gregor Mendel and Charles Darwin"?? AnonMoos (talk) 17:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

It should not say that. It's the exact opposite: Mendel and Darwin were influenced by Bakewell. I wonder what bozo (not you) switched that around in the FAC, several sources make the chronology quite plain... VanTucky 22:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Predation and protection

"More modern shepherds used guns, traps, and poisons to kill predators, causing significant decreases in predator populations. In the wake of the environmental and conservation movements, the use of these methods now usually falls under the purview of specially designated government agencies, rather than sheep producers."

Meseems it bears mentioning somewhere here that in many areas, local or (in the US) state law gives special provision for owners of animals considered "livestock", such as sheep, cows, chickens, et cetera, whether they be kept as livestock or not (for example, pygmy goats or bantom chickens raised as pets rather than livestock, but given that designation nevertheless due to the species they belong to), to kill any predator, no matter how endangered, if and only if the individual predatory animal in question represents a clear and obvious threat to the "livestock" population (such as a cougar that lives near stalks about a herd of cattle, or has already killed members of the heard). It shouldn't be too difficult to find a reference for that.

Though the reason for this has traditionally been to protect the livelihood of the livestock owner, one would think (though I'd imagine this would be much more difficult to find a reference for) that allowing predators to gorge themselves on pets and livestock would exert unwanted selective pressure on the predators in question, making them more specialized for and therefore to at least some degree dependent upon domestic prey and therefore human beings themselves, with potentially devistating effects on natural eco-systems. By contrast (and again, this would probably be difficult to find a reference for) killing only those individual predators (as opposed to whole populations or even species of predators, as was practiced in the past) that pose a significant threat to humans or domestic animals (I needn't remind anyone that human civilization is an invention of humans themselves, and that modern humans, having not been domesticated by some other species, must therefore be regarded as entirely wild animals and therefore an exception to the rule that only domestic animals be accorded such protection) should theoretically reduce the risk of such specialization and select for greater independence from human presence, despite what small, and if this sort of selective pressure affects aforesaid behavioral or mayhap even morphological (de-)specialization, temporary negative impact this might have on the size of wild populations.

Now I realize this is a lot of very general information probably belonging in another article entirely, but relevent enough that an abreviated summary and a link or two to (a) page(s) with more detailed information is, I think, warrented. --Þórrstejn [ˡθoɝ.staɪʲn]: Hammer of Thor talk 10:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

That's not what I found in the source material. Generally speaking, U.S. laws forbid killing of protected predators except when the animals are caught in the act of attacking livestock. Mere proximity isn't enough cause for a non-governmental agent to use deadly force against protected species. Remember the article is supposed to be a general overview, but there's a reason the passage says "now usually". There are always exceptions to a rule, and sheep producers may simply ignore the law. VanTucky 20:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oldest sheep

A trivia perhaps, but the article states the oldest sheep as being 20, while E. Straiton display a supposedly 27 year old ewe on page 89 of "Sheep ailments, recognition and treatment" ISBN 1-86126-397-x But of course, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. EverGreg (talk) 20:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, what year was the book published in? I ask because many older sheep books have glaring inaccuracies in them. Anyway, 20 is really meant to be the reasonable average top age. There have been a handful of people who lived until their 120's, but the article supposed to speak in general about sheep. I'll look around and see if I can corroborate some 20+ sheep. VanTucky 20:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
It was published in 2001 (7th edition) but could have been carried on from earlier editions of course. In any case, there's probably no official guinness record for oldest sheep. Well-documented cases at best. EverGreg (talk) 08:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Does semi-protection actually do anything?

Over the past 2 days, this page has been vandalized or otherwise burdened with incorrect edits by anonymous users many times. The entire time, it's had a semi-protected mark on it, which says that editing by IP users is prevented. What's going on? Dvd Avins (talk) 21:01, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Crafty sheep conquer cattle grids

Interesting that the article developed in April. Looks like someone has been taken as a fool. Grass growing through/or near the grid also indicates a spot where sheep could cross, too. Cgoodwin (talk) 01:17, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, dubious at best. And as for the BBC being a reliable resource, arent they the ones who write drivel like this:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4147801.stm as well as being involved in vandalism right here on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_BBC#Editing_of_Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bugguyak (talk • contribs) 19:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. I think you're basing you're scepticism on a preconceived notion of what sheep can and cannot do, rather than the reliability of the BBC. It's got an editorial staff and fact checking, and that meets WP:RS. VanTucky 21:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
there are a lot of online references supporting the BBC article, including some from local papers where this is alleged to have occured. It's quirky, but I think true and interesting, so it should be included.Bob98133 (talk) 14:46, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
(Is there some of this discussion elsewhere..? Also, didn't we have some discussion about it a few months back?)
There are a number of serious problems with this idea, and at present I do not think we can say any more than "it has been claimed by some" or some such weasel words. The BBC is generally very reliable, but their report of this is not, for several reasons:
  • It is not a "proper" news story, but a rather light-hearted item which is primarily about sheep trespasses, rather than their methods of escape. The sheep-rolling is not the kind of fact I would have expected a local BBC reporter to have checked directly.
  • The BBC do not present any direct evidence that it happened, they only report what a local councillor claims to have seen. This means that the report is actually hearsay – from a person who has a strong interest in the case. For example, it would only be a slight exaggeration for her to claim to have seen something reported to her by a constituent. We are not in fact relying on the BBC, but on a minor politician of unknown veracity. I've met a lot of local councillors, and they are certainly not a uniformly reliable bunch...
  • The claimed phenomenon is contrary to ungulate behaviour. It is simply not the way sheep think. They can be very agile on their feet, but are clumsy when lying down. Because of this it is an extraordinary claim, and needs very good evidence indeed.
  • As C Goodwin points out, the grid does not even look sheep-proof anyway...
To include this as a fact, we need much better, more direct evidence.--Richard New Forest (talk) 19:21, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Check out: [[1]]- this article allegedly quotes local people, talks about another security fence built to defeat escaping sheep. Bob98133 (talk) 22:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Sheep can jump, cross at the sides and walk along wide bed logs beneath a grid, walk across shallow grids but they CANNOT ROLL across grids. It is physically impossible for sheep to do so. Was the woman drunk, blind, or was it dark?? Cgoodwin (talk) 22:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe all three! I agree that it sounds incredible but I'm constantly surprised at incredible things that turn out to be true. There is way too much media on this for it to be an April Fools joke. If nothing else, I think it should be included with a disclaimer of some sort.Bob98133 (talk) 22:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Cgoodwin, you seem to basing your disagreement with the article on your personal experience with sheep. Any one person's experience with sheep does not contradict an article by a major international news organization which is describing a behavior which is plainly stated to be completely unique to one flock. It's being used in the article as a stand-alone example of the sometimes surprising craftyness and ability to learn of sheep, not as an example of a general behavioral trait. VanTucky 02:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not dispute the ability of sheep to learn only their physical abilities when on a regular grid. From another who queried the rolling ability:

"Widely reported" does not mean it happened, only that lots of people said it did. The same applies to British big cats, Nessie, Emmaville Panther, flying saucers and whatnot. Rolling sheep may be a bit more likely than those, but until it's got solid evidence it doesn't matter how many people say they've heard of it. In fact I think one of the refs may actually be a counter-ref – the Independent article is saying it's a "silly season" story, and I think the implication is that it'd be reported whether (wether..?) it happened or not.

The web is full of duplicated errors!! At the end of the day this statement puts a query on a well written article's accuracy. Cgoodwin (talk) 02:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're right in one respect. Widely reported can be applied to aliens and such. But the key point you're missing is that on Wikipedia, we are here to enforce verifiability, not the truth. If a reliable source, like the BBC, says something happened, then we say that it did. If you find it dubious, we can attribute it to the BBC and let people judge whether they want to trust the source or not. But removing something you personally think is factually dubious based on personal experience when it's verified by decent sourcing is directly in contradiction with our core policies. VanTucky Vote in my weird poll! 04:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
As I said above, the BBC is not a reliable source for this fact, it is only a reliable source for the existence of someone who says it happened. In this instance the BBC is not really a "major international news organisation" – this is a local story, done by a non-specialist local reporter. The important fact in the story is that sheep were getting into gardens etc; the sheep-rolling is just an amusing hook for the story. The reporter will have been careful to avoid libelling anyone (so for example they would not call the councillor a liar without solid evidence), but they would not check the sheep behaviour directly without further reason. Apart from anything else, such a reporter would not know the difference between a probably impossible sheep behaviour and any of the many other seemingly incomprehensible things that happen in the countryside. Like almost everyone nowadays, reporters are townies!
From the wording of the article it is perfectly clear that the BBC have not checked the rolling independently. If they had checked it, they would have certainly included other statements such as "we actually saw the sheep rolling", "we were shown video", "a sheep behaviour expert confirmed", "locals gather in crowds to watch the sheep rolling" or some such, any of which would be much more interesting than a mere "the councillor said she saw". The quote from the councillor is the only evidence actually offered, and it is therefore clear that it's the only evidence available. Effectively the BBC are saying "we were told this, judge for yourself". For that reason we cannot attribute the information to the BBC and judge for ourselves, we must judge the witness directly.
The BBC is not the primary source, and the primary source is not sufficiently reliable. --Richard New Forest (talk) 09:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
This sheep story is sort of cute, but really not necessary for the article, since it's obviously the exception (assuming it ever happened). Since there is so much disagreement about it, I reverse my opinion and say we should leave it out of the article; at least until some reliable source is found for it, if that ever happens.Bob98133 (talk) 14:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Please add the link {{Link FA|ca}}, just been awarded --Panotxa (talk) 05:24, 24 May 2008 (UTC)