Talk:Doctor of the Church
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[edit] Nationality
This column needs major work and changes. St. Basil's nationality most certainly was NOT Turkish. He neither spoke nor understood the language. Furthermore, there were no Turks living in the area at the time, nor was there any Turkish, Ottoman, or Seljuk kingdom, principality, emirate, khanate, province, colony, city or any other kind of unit there at this time. St. Ambrose was NOT Italian. He might have considered himself, and been considered in turn, Roman or Latin, but not Italian.
The table either needs to change the name of the column to something like "Current nation in which place of birth is located" or the information in the column needs to reflect the understanding of nationality/ethnicity that existed at the times of these various saints.
There's also a lot of inconsistency. St. Jerome's nationality is listed as "Dalmatian", but there is no nation of Dalmatia today. Despite that, this makes good sense as "Dalmatian" more closely corresponds with the ethnic/national categories of his time than "Croatian" or "Serbian" or "Yugoslav". St. Isidore's nationality of Visigothic likewise fails to correspond with any of today's nationalities, but that's actually not a problem since it does correspond with the nationalities in use at his time.
My suggestion? In this column, first give the nationality that the person in question most likely would have used to describe himself or herself. Many of these will be more closely tied with place of birth (natio) than with current nation states, but that's actually good as it's more accurate. Second, give the name of which of today's nation states this birthplace now lies in. I think, for example, that the first datum for all of the "Italian" saints should NOT be Italy, but rather the name of the republic, empire, kingdom, duchy or whatever they were born in and identified as their nationality. Interlingua talk email 14:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Add to the examples above that Bede can in no sense be described as British. British could mean Brythonic Celtic, i.e. Welsh: he was a Northumbrian Angle. British can also mean a UK citizen post-1707: he lived a thousand years too early for that. I wish I could share the confidence expressed above that nationality could make any sense at all when applied to people who lived before the emergence of nation states. At least we can all accept that St Theresa of Lisieux was French and that's about it.Sjwells53 20:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Traditional Catholics" and women Doctors
A user added material claiming that "the traditional Catholics" reject the addition of the three women Doctors from 1970 on. That statement has been progressively toned down, to "most traditional Catholics", then "many", and finally "some". The effect, though, is to make the statement very weasel-wordish, and in the absence of a reputable source (and a clear definition of who does and who doesn't count as a "traditional(ist) Catholic"), the article is far better off without the statement however phrased, so I have taken the liberty of removing it. Vilĉjo 22:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] An Updating
On this feast of St. Ambrose, I have done some updating to this article.
- Eliminated the reference to the doctors as theologians. The women doctors were not theologians.
- Eliminated the reference to beatification. Canonization (formal or equivalent) is necessary.
- Corrected some of the nationality problems & added footnotes where I thought necessary.
- Added more appropriate activities.
- Added a quote pertaining to women doctors.
The references to the honorary titles should be eliminated as they can be confusing. Some titles are shared by more than one doctor, e.g., the titles "Doctor Universalis" and "Doctor Venerabilis" are given to both Thomas Aquinas and Albert the Great. Furthermore, which title is to be given? Thomas Aquinas has had upwards of ten titles bestowed on him. If they did, indeed, serve to distinguish, then they would merit inclusion. 68.65.122.80 17:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ordering
I think the list should be sorted according to birth (or flourishing) dates. As the list is as today, there isn't any criterion for its ordering. Nivaca 20:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- Sounds like a good criterion to me. Goldfritha 23:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- Unless it's been edited recently, it's sorted by the year each was named a Doctor. I'd suggest keeping that order, with either year of birth or alphabetical ordering for those years which had multiple Doctors named. PaulGS 00:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Math
From the current article:
"The Catholic Church has to date named 33 Doctors of the Church. Of these, the 17 who died before the formal disunion of the Eastern and Western Churches in 1054 are also venerated by the Eastern Orthodox Church. Among these 33 are 25 from the West and 8 from the East; 14 diocesan priests, 16 religious priests and 3 women; 18 bishops, 9 priests, 1 deacon, 2 nuns and 1 lay woman; 24 from Europe, 3 from Africa, 6 from Asia."
My first question is what the definition of "East" and "West is. My second question is how "18 bishops, 9 priests, 1 deacon, 2 nuns and 1 lay woman" can add up to 33. That seems to add up to 31 to me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.252.107.160 (talk) 04:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC).
The West in Christian history terms refers to that part of the world once [rimarily controlled by the Western Roman Empire, the Latin-speaking world, i.e., roughly, Western Europe. The East refers to that part of the world once controlled by or heavily influenced by the Byzantine Empire -- hence, Eastern Europe and the Middle East, roughly speaking. Western Christianity follows the Roman liturgical tradition (and later, the Protestant traditions), while Eastern Christianity follows the Byzantine, Antiochene, Alexandrian and Armenian traditions -- today the Eastern Rite Catholic, the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches. There are in fact 33 doctors -- the 2 nuns and one laywoman is a bit misleading, as Catherine of Siena was a lay Dominican who later was part of a convent; 19 were bishops (including Popes), 10 were priests, 1 was adeacon, and three were women, all arguably (in some sense) religious sisters.HarvardOxon 04:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Expansion of list
I have included references to groups other than simply the main Roman Catholic Church as per the Holweck source cited. John Carter (talk) 20:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
