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[edit] Two infoboxes enter, only one leaves
We have two infoboxes in the article; one deals primarily with the subject, and the other deals with other incarnations (other folk who have worn the bucket that is Nabu). As far as I know, only one is needed for the article; the primary one. The other incarnations or publication history can be integrated in the primary one. Thoughts? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- First, could you point to the policy, guide line, or consensus that limits the number of infoboxes in an article. If there is one, I'd really like to see it before going and running up infoboxes for character/series (which would be applicable here where the series are a minor part of the article), series/character (reverse situation), alias/series, and series/alias. Creating that for this article as a "special case" instead of a set of general 'boxes for like article is more trouble than it's worth. Also, having such a guide to point to would help with cleaning up a lot of articles that have multiple 'boxes. (Please note, I'm not trying to argue "other stuff", just firmly determine if this is a case of layout counter to consensus or an issue of taste on a non-addressed issue.) - J Greb (talk) 22:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know, J. I do know that i haven't seen any other article s with multiple infoboxes (and that includes other media and article types), so I am presuming there is one. Maybe you could look for such a policy this weekend, as I am heading out of town and will not be checking in. Let me know what you find out. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 00:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
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- Other examples of multiple boxes in use include Justice League, Teen Titans, Justice Society of America, and a veriaty of multiple character articles.
- In most of those cases, the "suplimentry" 'boxes are tied to specific sub-sections of the articles, which isn't the case here, nor could it be given the subject. - J Greb (talk) 00:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- There must be a better way to do this that cluttering up the page than using multiple boxes. We can split articles and mark them as such, thus covering other sub-genres. thoughts? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 01:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes and no. The Titans article, for example, has what seems to be an onging give and take debate on compressing and splitting. And it may be that there is a difference in page layou concpt. Remember what I said about subsections and actually look at the Teen titans article. Except for the team 'box and original series, which are at the top of the page, the series 'boxes are set at the top of the relavent subsections. They function as they are supposed to and don't create designe or legability issues.
- While there are articles where the layout is and issue (Sandman (DC Comics)) or could be one (here), it isn't an automatic "bad practice" or, as far as I can tell, a forbidden one. Also keep in mind this aritcle is using a character box, the primay focus of the artile with all 6 comic book chrated addressed, and a comic book series box, listing the 3 self titled comic book runs.
- - J Greb (talk) 01:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
(←dent) I don't know, J - it seems a slim argument that tends towards sliding into in-universe infoboxing for one and excess triviality for the other. What is the exceptional notability for any volume of Doctor Fate over another? Remember, this is an article about the character from a comic book, not the comic book itself. Publication information can be noted at the end of the article, or - maybe not at all, as the distinguishing between volumes as to who wore the bucket and when seems trivial. And just bc TT or JL or JSA use it doesn't mean it's correct. As yu noted, there is a lot of discussion about it. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- Nor does it mean that it is incorrect. This is one of the two reasons I asked you if you had a consensus, guide line, and/or policy that you were coming from. If such exists, then there is a solid, or as solid as Wiki gets, reason for creating the combined infoboxes and enforcing a "the can only be one" mentality. Without that, right here, right now we have an attempt to create that consensus with an editor pointing out "I think this is wrong and we shouldn't do it."
- There is also the fact that, and I'm going to hammer this point as hard as I can, the 'boxes in this article are doing two separate things. One is the character 'box which list information, both in real world and in-universe context, of four of the six versions of the character and links to the article on the remaining two versions. The other is a comic book series 'box, which should 100% real world context and self-contained. The character 'box has pride of place due to the article being more about the characters than the three series. But even then that does not elevate content from the series box, making one series more important than the others, because the 'boxes are dealing with different types of content. - J Greb (talk) 23:50, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- With the utmost of respect, arguing from the negative - ie, 'that doesn't make it incorrect' - is a sophistry argument, and less than useful here. If you want to make a point/alteration in policy that you need to make and find consensus for in the Comics Wikiproject, and not testing the waters by putting it here. Virtually every other article within the wiki-en uses one infobox, and that includes other comic book articles. However, I could be wrong. If there are a number of FA articles that use multiple infoboxes, please point them out here.
- Of course, that is a bit of sophistry on my part, as there aren't FA articles that have a plethora of infoboxes. The article covers all aspects of the character within one article. It covers publication history, publication dates, etc. The article doesn't distinguish betwen the value of the fictional information and the publication dates of that fictional information. As infoboxes are summaries of the article for the purposes of classification; a far briefer summary of the article that even the Lede is.
- Perhaps, arguing for a more extensive infobox instead of arguing for a multiplication of them is the wiser tack here. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
- Sandman (DC Comics) also uses two infoboxes, and usefully so. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 16:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, but again - that is a small list of articles that use more than one infobox. I would also point out that the second infobox could easily be deleted, and its information incorporated into the first one. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 17:21, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- After two weeks without movement on how having two infoboxes is an improvement over one - which is used in the majority of articles in Wikipedia (and not just comics articles) - I've decided to be bold and remove it. It sets a bad precedent. The information in the second infobox can be utilized in the article and isn't particularly useful or relevant as an infobox. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- And I've been bold and reverted.
- Bluntly: Provide the guide line or policy that states that using more than one 'box is forbidden.
- You've been asked to do this repeatedly and have fallen back on stating that the current, long standing usage must be shown as valid and that you don't like it. That doesn't cut it. Provide the cite or build a consensus to have it changed. At this point there is no consensus, so there is no change. - J Greb (talk) 23:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- With respect, I have already noted that the majority of the articles in Wikipedia don;t use it, and only a small handful of articles use the double infobox, the second of which is utterly unnecessary, and should instead be provided in the body of the article. It isn't a matter of ot likeing it, J - its a matter of uniformity (art of that whole encyclopedic thing). And allow me to be frank - it is in fact you that needs to beuild a consensus to change the standing consensus clearly inidacted by the lack of the template in other articles. You have to build a consensus to add it. I don't have to provide one to keep it out, especially when it is unnecessary. ou might want to take this discussion to the Comics project, as has been suggested before. Make policy there, not here. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 00:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Um... bull.
- The pair of 'boxes hav sat quietly on the article until you decided it was an issue. We've hit WP:BRD. Yours is the bold edit at this point. Yours is the one that has garnered contention. Yours is the onus.
- Frankly, I'd love to have something more than the "Other pages don't" on this since that would make it that much easier to create a solution that doesn't engender lay out problems, have editors shaking their heads at the look, or remove content.
- Yes, there there is currently a discusion here, though it seems to have gone a little sideways. And a question put to the Project focusing on the 'boxes here. Feel free to add your thoughts at Comics, ot to take a whack at proding Infoboxes, but please don't go jumping that your bold edit is right, or shouting "edit war" when you're pushing the change. - J Greb (talk) 00:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'd like to join in the discussion, but first I'd like to ask you both to consider your tone. Let's bring it back down to the civil realms that I know we're all accustomed : ) - jc37 01:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Nonrandom break 1
- Thanks for interjecting, JC. Let's try this again:
- BRD means one makes a bold edit. Then, if there is a revert, discussion takes place. We don't post out view point inthe discussion page, and then go and revert back in something we KNOW is going to be in contention. Let's halt this slo-mo edit war and take the discussion over to the current one at Wikiproject comics. Please await the conclusion (and consensus that arises from that discussion, please).
- I'll add more thoughts on this tomorrow. I am off for the evening - Arcayne (cast a spell) 01:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
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- So, let me make sure I go this crystal clear:
- Content that was added 17 months ago[1], and has been in place, without comment or problem is the edit that needs to be justified while the deletion of that content less than 2 weeks ago[2], which was contested, is fine?
- I'm sorry, I don't buy that, especially since the editor deleting it has edited the article prior to the deletion, yet left the 'box alone. That, and the long period the content was left in place speaks to the deletion being the bold edit in this case.
- And if we are to await a consensus, at worst that means the article, or the relevant content "hold" at the point prior to the recent bold edit. - J Greb (talk) 01:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- I think you have an adequate grasp of the situation, J. I didn't edit the infobox out because I simply didn't pay as much attention to this article until recently, and my edits reflected article content rather than a plethora of infoboxes. I don't see the eddition of one or more as a step in the right direction. If you feel the current ones are not up to the task, then they should be reworked. Adding more to make a point isn't really helpful. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 15:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've posted my general thoughts on the Comic Project in hope of moving things forward. My general feeling is that we should try and avoid multiple boxes if we can - the main case for them is where a number of different characters share the same name but we should look into splitting them - as has been done on Sandman (DC Comics) - an example which only appears to need one infobox as all others have their own entries. Where there are different people wearing the same cowl/mask/bucket then we can easily compact them (as J Greb did with Union Jack (comics) here).
- Teams may be a different kettle of fish so I suspect their examples may not be relevant to the discussion, as attempts to outline a roster would get messy quickly. I'd still like to look at the examples a bit more closely but it feels like apples and oranges and they could require a different approach.
- Given that I think this page works fine with the one infobox. Although I am open to arguments for the use of more. (Emperor (talk) 02:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC))
- I would agree with that assessment, Emperor. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 15:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
