Talk:Docking (dog)

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I wrote: "Show dogs of many breeds are still routinely docked in the UK." and miss-spelt "routinely". My spell checker corrected it to: "Show dogs of many breeds are still rottenly docked in the UK." - which sums up my views quite well I think ;) Which is another way of saying - "please check for NPOV"

I've tried for a pro/anti balance in the links, but they are rather UK centred so some more worldwide links would also be useful

The article is rather dog based too (not surprising considering the first two authors). Maybe this needs more on docking in other animals too (sheep? pigs?) but most of the discussion on the subject relates to dogs so I'm not sure what we can say on that subject.

-- sannse (talk) 23:03, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Just N-pov'd the 'criticisms' section and pegged it to two published sources. The preceding version asserted some of the critical argument's evidence as if to treat it as fact. Since all those claims about animal behaviour and physiology are reputably in dispute, I think it's fairest to 'outsource' the disagreement, with plenty of reference. Adhib 16:55, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Good work Adhib, that's nicely done, thanks -- sannse (talk) 17:19, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I also like the addition of the list by country. Very helpful. Elf | Talk 19:41, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Information for NZ is incorrect. Information on why some breeds of gundogs have tails docked is incorrect (fighting with other animals??) Simple to find the correct information, I'm surprised as this is an "encylopedia". souces UKCDB. NZCDB. Docking is carried out on a pup at 2-4 days of age when nervous system undeveloped (pups born blind, deaf, unable to toilet without help from mother) other animals like lambs which are docked at weeks of age are born with fully functional nervous system. [user MC]

My theory of a main reason for the popularity of docking the tails of dogs is that it became very popular in England over 200 years ago as a means of avoiding the dog tax. English laws were enacted at that time which stated that dogs that work for a living were not taxed, and "working dogs" were distinguished by docked tails. [user CG]

Contents 1 (In)Human Punishment? 2 Wrong 3 A small note 4 Dog vs agricultural docking 5 New UK Status 6 Unclear wording 7 Removed paragraph 8 I don't understand

[edit] (In)Human Punishment?

What is the purpose of the (in)Human punishment section? Since the article is "docking (animals)" isn't ear cropping as a form of corporal punishment outside it's scope?

• Man IS an animal, of the zoological order of Primates, and when he practices docking for such arbitrary reasons as esthetics a particularly 'beastly' one; when suffering similar maiming (or branding etc.), he's also treated like just another animal.

This section is clearly misplaced. I am not commenting on its validity, simply on its placement here where it clearly does NOT belong. Humans are not animals in the sense intended here. Surely there are much more appropriate Wikipedia articles? Anyone interested in cruel and unusual human punishments would NOT look here! Quill 06:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• We've had such emotional hickups before (cfr. supra), but the fact is man IS an animal and probably the only truely 'beastly' one, as shown precisely by such cruel mutilation which aimsexactly to humiliate and mark like cattle; my original section title was (IN)human punishment, but got edited away- feel free to reinstate it Fastifex 12:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• This is not an 'emotional hickup'(sic). The emotional argument is yours: you're mixing concepts, in this case human bestiality and animal husbandry---adding a non sequitur in a ridiculous manner in a ridiculous place. Do not let your repugnance blind you to logic: the fact is that no one would reasonably look for your concepts in an article with this title. This is why Wikipedia is not taken seriously. Quill 22:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, I directed it here because the same terms -such as the synynymous emaning of cropping- are exclicitly used in sources on the punishment, clearly recognizing the physical identity of the actions; obviously the reasons differ, but that goes just as well for other physical markings, e.g. brandingv(has two articles, but much larger ones). Fastifex 10:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Fastifex, what does this mean "such as the synynymous emaning of cropping- are exclicitly used in sources on the punishment"? Is English not your first language? Docking of animals and human ear mutilation ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!

Removed section- Make a Human docking article if you want to-and rewrite it, it is not very clear. FancyPants 16:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Fastifex, you are either incredibly confused or in blatant violation of WP:POINT. Either way, please cease from adding nonsense to articles and pushing POV about the beastial nature of man. The title (In)Human Punishment in and of itself is a blatant WP:NPOV violation, to say nothing of how off-topic your supposed content is. --tjstrf 16:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

You're the confused one. My punishment section says nothing about man in general, it treats only the use of docking on man, just as on animals, but for other, intentinally cruel reasons. It is quite impossibe to push a POV, even if there were one, by a title which leaves it to the reader to fill in either Human or Inhuman. Nor is bestiality -non even mentioned a no sensical concept, but a common word specifically constructed to brand some of the worst human behovior as at least as bad as what zoological 'beasts' sometimes do that seems cruel to ignorant human observers. Fastifex 09:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

This section has a large amount of dispute on this talk page. It should not be in the article until agreement is reached here. The first thing I would suggest is to show some source where the term "docking" is used to refer to the items disscussed in this section. Please do not add this section back to the article without such sources.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 22:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong

Reading this made me feel sick, how the fuck can people do that too dogs??? What the fuck is wrong with the Paris Hiltons of this fucking world! 58.107.175.127 04:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A small note

At least in the case of boxers, the tails are docked to prevent them from injuring themselves-- boxer tails are very thin and thus if left undocked could easily be broken. Jtrainor 11:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• This is mainly because breeders always docked the tails of this breed so there was never a reason to breed for a stronger tail... if breeders start selectively breededing dogs which are not so prone to fractures in the tail then within relatively few generations this problem would be reduced. It would of course be difficult to simultaneously select for both "a strong tail" and "reduced chance of hip displasure" (along with whatever characteristics are already in the registers interests)Garrie 21:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dog vs agricultural docking

throughout most of the article it seems as though it is assumed the topic is Docking (dogs) rather than Docking (animals). Especially in regards to the legal status section - which is most likely a list of the legal status of docking dogs tails (certainly in Australia it is legal to dock sheep and pigs). This bias needs extensive reworking to remove, or most of the content could be moved to Docking (dog) leaving a more general article behind.Garrie 02:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a second proposal: Move /*Docking in Agriculture*/ to just below /*History of Docking*/, then below that make a section /*Docking of Dogs*/ and downgrade every heading relating to dogs by one level.Garrie 21:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

In the absence of dissenting comment - I will follow on with my first proposal. It is easier to implement (will move the article to Docking (dogs), recreate Docking (animals), move required content back to this article)Garrie 04:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I have moved this article (obviously!) - if you look at Docking (animals) you will see it is quite a small article and no noticable content has been removed from this one. Yet everything on this article relates to Dogs, not other agricultural animals.Garrie 04:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New UK Status

Hi there. I will do this myself this weekend if no one else does, but is someone aware that this article talks about the UK laws on docking very incosistantly? The Animal Welfare Act (which has now come into force) has been mentioned, and the country's stance has been changed in the list, but no one as altered the main sub text which covers it in more detail (it currently says docking is allowed under certain loose conditions, which was the status before and has now changed). Also, a small point, but its the Animal Welfare Act *2007* not 2006. --The Wizard of Magicland 09:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unclear wording

The few hunting breeds that are not docked, including English Pointers and the Setter breeds, may have chronic injuries to the tips of their tails. Such injuries cause continuing pain and discomfort and are at risk of infection throughout their lives.

Does this mean that undocked hunting dogs may sustain chronic injuries because their tails are long, or that they are not docked because docking may cause chronic injuries? —Michael Z. 2007-08-13 19:11 Z

It means that these breeds are at greater risk for chronic injury because their tails are not docked. That statement could use a reference. --Joelmills 01:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't have sources to cite, but I have to say as a veterinarian who's been practicing for almost 15 years with a patient group that includes a lot of hunting dogs that this statement is not consistent with my experience. I don't see an inordinate number of tail injuries in hunting dogs with undocked tails. NotThatKat (talk) 02:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Nepal: Unbanned

Does this mean "unrestricted"? The inconsistent term implies that a previous ban was lifted. —Michael Z. 2007-08-13 19:14 Z

[edit] Removed paragraph

I've removed the following paragraph:

Some people believe that docking a dog's tail is a cruel practice. They believe that if a dog is performing its job—such as hunting—then it is fine to dock the tail; if the dog of the same breed is in a home where it doesn't do the job, however, then docking is not necessary. Some people believe that, if a newborn puppy's tail is docked without the use of anesthesia, the puppies are put through much pain. The newborn can't express pain clearly, so most breeders seem to think the puppies don't feel a thing.

It had very little to do with the "History of docking and cropping" and uses weasel words. The criticisms are addressed in the "Current status" section anyway. Benstrider (talk) 01:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I don't understand

surely the simplest solution would be to just breed dogs with short tails from birth? Then everyones happy. --86.144.102.226 (talk) 00:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

It would make a portion of current "breedable" dogs become unsuitable for breeding. Everyone happy, but breeders.--165.21.154.89 (talk) 15:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It would presumably take many generations. The current dogs would form the original stock, but by the time it's finished that original stock would have all short tailed descendents. --86.135.178.19 (talk) 17:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Check this out. Naturally docked boxers bred by crossing boxers with corgis. Might be worth adding something about it to the article. The articles are supposedly published in Dog World Magazine (UK), so would probably satisfy wp:rs. --220.255.7.247 (talk) 11:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)