Talk:Dobsonian telescope

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Contents 1 Correction to article 2 Merging telescope mount articles 3 "Dobsonian Mount"? 4 Cleanup 5 Re-Cleanup 5.1 The Show So Far

[edit] Correction to article

This article seemed to incorrectly describes the "Dobsonian" as just a mount. The "Dobsonian" is actually an innovative telescope and mount design. I don’t know if this is because it was originaly a redirect from an article about mount types but I have edited it to be more descriptive of the entire class “Dobsonian”.(Halfblue 05:00, 10 March 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Merging telescope mount articles

Hello. I was browsing the various telescope mount articles recently (see Telescope mount, Altazimuth_mount, Equatorial mount, Dobsonian), and I'd like to propose merging them into a single Telescope mount article. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? If so, could you please visit Talk:Telescope_mount#What.27s_the_role_of_this_article and perhaps comment? Izogi 04:01, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

The "Dobsonian" article you are refering to was incorrect in that it describes the Dobsonian as just a mount style. The Dobsonian is a full telescope design encompassing the telescope and the mount.

[edit] "Dobsonian Mount"?

Is there such a thing as a Dobsonian Mount? The Dobsonian seems to be a class of telescope that uses a combination of previously know innovations for a specific design purpose (a large, cheap, portable, deep sky instrument). It may be a misnomer to call any one of those design features "Dobsonian". i.e. The Dobsonians do not have "Dobsonian Mounts"; they have Altazimuth_mounts. And those Altazimuth_mounts may use John Dobson's design features but that would make them "Dobsonian style" Altazimuth_mounts. I have made a few minor text changes to this end but would appreciate other people’s opinions. Halfblue 05:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

I cleaned up the edit up to 01:32, 27 September 2006. Sections of it seemed to just describe commercial types instead of Dobsonian evolutions and also read as a "how to" Buyers guide WP:NOT. "Truss Tube” was not "invented" in 1989 so need to more specificaly describe it as an evolution. Uncited claims such as "rigorous documentation to ensure their optical quality to the purchaser", "better distribute the mirror box’s weight", and whole sections on current commercial models seem to be derived from ads and are therefor POV. RV'ed whole sections on "two generations" of Dobs since that doesn’t seem to be substantiated by sourced material. The rest of the changes are very good IMHO and I have simple re-arranged some of them to be more encyclopedic. (PS there are GFDL images of “Truss Tube” Dobsonians on Wikipedia Commons in case the immage supplied gets afD'ed. Will leave current image for now so its editor can supply a Copyright rational.) Halfblue 19:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re-Cleanup

Dear Halfblue. Thank you for comments – it’s great to see that there are others interested in this article. I do disagree with you in many, many areas and I feel a few of your comments are quite subjective and POV (e.g. what constitutes “factual” and encyclopedic) but I’m hoping we can work together to refine this article. The original article was a good start, but as an amateur with 30 years of experience, I feel that it had a very narrow breadth (focusing primarily on ATM’s) and does not encompass the full history or important aspects of this design. Here are the major area’s I disagree with you on:

• First of all, I’m sensing a bias POV against “commercial” telescope manufacturers as engendered by your concern that the last edit “describes commercial adaptations instead of describing the designs in the amateur telescope making world where Dobsonians were really developed”. Please bear in mind these designs were greatly improved on popularized by commercial makers (many of whom started as ATM’s). Most Dobs are bought, which make manufacturers highly relevant. Some manufacturers, such as Coulter (e.g the “Volkswagon” of Dobs) and Obsession (which made the truss design popular) greatly changes the overall evolution of this design, and deserve mention.
• Second, I complete disagree with your characterization that this is somehow a “How To” buyers guide. Again, I’m sensing a bias against the discussion of anything commercial. An authorative article on cars would likely mention the larger makers, and price ranges of typical model – it’s factually relevant to anyone trying to get an understanding of the subject. The mere mention of a manufacturer does not mean its advertising. The discussion of the differences of each type is no more of a buyer's guide than the pro's/con's section that existed earlier. There’s nothing wrong with it or counter to Wikipedia’s policies.
• Truss Tubes are a very distinct and popular telescope, and deserve a separate category. I earlier proposed “first” and “second” generation scopes, but perhaps the categories “classic” and “truss tube” may be better. Commercial truss designs have been in their current form for 15+ years. Having observed in California in the past 15 years I know that they’ve become the dominant scope by number at star parties, much in the same way C-8’s were 20 years ago. I don’t feel that “Continued Evolution of the Design” is adequate – this a definite sub category recognized by most sources (e.g S&T, Astronomy, Etc.)
• I made no claim that the Truss Tube was invented in 1989, only that the first commercial models became available then, so I left this part in. I’ve modified it though to pay homage to the ATM’s that likely developed this contribution.
• I’ve worked on some of the language your earlier took issue with (e.g “premium optics” and better weight distribution)

I’ve restored much of the content modified in respect to your earlier comments. Please, let’s work together in developing sources and refinements. Let’s not simply delete content wholesale because one of us happens to disagree with it. Again, bear in mind that I’m writing this as a amateur astronomer with 30 years experience who has himself taught classes on the subject. I have no vested commercial interested in any particular telescope or manufacturer. Joeconsumer 09/27/06.

Well... speaking as an amateur and professional telescope maker with a 35 year history I have to say... the article looks better, needs work, but looks better. When I talk about "encyclopedic" I mean that encyclopedic articles describe "things". The thing in question is a "design" so the article should describe the design, its origins, and its evolution, relevant additions ect. I have seen other articles where people want to describe a "design" via commercial models that are available. Commercial models may have their place but they are more a response to a market than a relevant landmark in a design. None of the innovations you attribute to commercial manufacturers are in fact "innovations". They all were in full swing well before some company picked them up. The Truss Tube existed way before the advent of the Dobsonian let alone its adaptation by manufacturers. And it was in full use practically in "first generation" dobsonians (have a look at my picture on the Amateur telescope making page and you will see Truss Tube Dobsonians lurking in the background in 1981). And when a manufacturer does pick up a design it lags the actual evolution... for example there is a greater than 20 year gap between the origin of the Dobsonian and the first Coulters. Commercial designs follow markets and tastes... so they are minimally relevant on a page about a design.

Have a look at "cars". "An authorative article on cars" does not "mention the larger makers, and price ranges of typical model"... in so much as it lists landmarks in its evolution and commercial companies contribution to that evolution.

That's why I changed "Second Generation “Truss Tube” Dobsonians" to "Continued evolution of the design". There is no hard cutoff like you tried to characterize in your first edit. And the prevalence of commercial truss tube Dobs today are not a continuing evolution as much as a few commercial manufacturers' response to a market <--- and that gives you a sub-heading "Commercial applications".

Working together on this is a good thing and Wikipedia recommends it for a good reason. Whacking the revert button may not be the best way to do that so I put forward my reasons and views...make what you will of them. Halfblue 04:46, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi True Blue: Thanks, I agree that there’s a lot that can be done to improve the overall article. Here are my thoughts going forward.

• Add more ATM History: I’ve mostly bought my scopes over the years, so I’m not as well versed in the contributions of ATM’s outside of John Dobson. Clearly this group developed a lot of the major innovations so I think we should develop their history more.
• Don’t downplay the importance of manufacturers: They are important – many of us would not have dobs if it wasn’t for the Coulters and Orions of the world. Going back the car analogy, like ATM's many innovators came up with the fundamental construct of the modern car by the early 1890’s, but it didn’t really become wide spread until Ford produced the Model T – and historically, that’s very relevant. Sure there are the “consumer” driven Meade and Celestrons of the world, but remember that many other smaller companiies (Obsession, Discovery, Starsplitters) started off as ATM’s that simply decided to sell their wares.
• Add evolution section / other relevant subcategories: I believe that we should have a separate category for truss tubes, but there’s noting precluding the addition of another category discussing ongoing evolution or some of the other new types of scopes. I seen many ATM’s use monopole supports instead of a Verrier Truss. The “portoball” type of instrument is a good variation. I’ve seen many ATM’s (and at least one commercial outfit) experiment with collapsible carbon fiber design – which could have important implications in the future.
• Add more references / citations: I admit there is a lot of sources we should add. We could start adding “citation needed” marks and begin the process of locating the references

My thoughts for now... Please don’t let me discourage you from making tweaks /edits to the article. I’ll probably have a bit more time to work on this over the coming weekend. JoeConsumer 06:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC

[edit] The Show So Far

All those mods you mention would be a good idea. I have made some more basic mods that may address some of what you mention. They will help categorize any additions to come. I find that you can always find help on Wikipedia its self. On of the first pieces of advice in article writing is What are you (we) trying to say? What we are trying to say is “There is a design, it has these applications, it has had these derivations”. In polishing up a quite a few articles on telescopes I have come across other peoples examples of organizing this type of information. The one I think will help here is Schmidt camera. I am making changes based on that. One line of thinking I am working along is that the "Dobsonian" is getting to be a historical artifact... the creation of one mind or group. So it should probably be discribed as a single or "classic" invention that then has derivations.

So:

• Introduction (Wikipedia asks that this be short and sweet… hitting just the most relevant highlights) Some edits made there... mostly moves to more relevant sections.
• Invention and Design. (Covered pretty well)
• Applications ((Old article has that but this shows me that Advantages and Disadvantages needs to be moved up and needs to be made a sub heading)
• Derivative Designs (this is where information on amateur and commercial adaptations belongs. And those adaptations should be described in reference to the original design or concept.)

Material has been pretty muched re-arranged into their logical sections These edits continue to follow this philosophy:

• Get it all in order. Avoid describing the design backwards. It needs to be A-B-C-D instead of trying to describe it from what we see today and working backwards. Get all information into their logical sub headings.
• Dig!!! Describe variations RE: where they came from (Wikipedia asks for citations when possible) errr… this may be hard since its seldom that one single person can or will step forward and say “I invented the rocker box mount”. But even superficial “digging” shows me that most design variations we are talking about here were not invented by commercial interests.
• Describe. Describe what the variations are, where they came from, and why an amateur or company used them.

Halfblue 16:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)