Talk:Dnipropetrovsk

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Contents 1 Number of Jews left in Dnepropetrovsk 2 Name of the City in English: Dnepropetrovsk or Dnipropetrovsk? 2.1 Should its name be Dniepropetrovsk? 2.2 How the city name is spelled in English 2.3 On WP naming conventions 2.4 Phonetic spelling 2.5 The Correct Name of DNK in English 2.6 Explanation for the Two Names 2.7 Usage Data 3 Dnepropetrovsk - deletion of street map and photos what you call "ugly houses" 4 Deletion of User Comments 5 "Best" time 6 Historic Manufacturing, Economic and Ethic Data on the City

[edit] Number of Jews left in Dnepropetrovsk

During the German occupation ... but soon after the Nazis conquered the city on October 12, 1941, 11,000 were shot; in the end only 15 Jews of Dnipropetrovsk survived at the end of the war.

What is the source for "15 Jews"? 13:54, 12 March 2006 212.199.52.46

The figure of 15 seems most unlikely. Synagogues are a lot more prominent in Dnepropetrovsk today than in London.--Toddy1 12:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name of the City in English: Dnepropetrovsk or Dnipropetrovsk?

[edit] Should its name be Dniepropetrovsk?

Redirect from Dnepropetrovsk is buggy. Also, what is the relation between Dnepropetrovsk and Kudak (mentioned in article about Stanislaw Koniecpolski? Is this an older name, or was Kudak just nearby? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:25, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'd say just nearby. I guess Kodak (as far as I'm accustomed to name) was destroyed before the foundation of existing city.AlexPU

[edit] How the city name is spelled in English

I checked LexusNexus database on how the city name is spelled in major English media. The search for the last two years usage in major papers gives the following results:

• Dnepropetrovsk - used 66 times.
• Dnipropetrovs'k - used only once.
• Dnipropetrovsk - used 243 times. Also used by Britannica.

Therefore, I moving the article from Dnipropetrovs'k to Dnipropetrovsk. Irpen 00:14, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

Please note that none of the spellings you mention are English names; they are different transliterations of the Russian and Ukrainian names of the city. Dnipropetrovs'k satisfies the suggested convention in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), which says If there is no commonly-used English name, use an accepted transliteration of the name in the original language.

We've been using the full formal National transliteration for geographic names in Ukraine, in article titles, and often in the text of articles (many articles on Russian Empire and Soviet-era topics use Russian names, and a notable exception is Kiev/Kyiv). It makes good sense to use a consistent transliteration scheme, and not the most popular transliteration scheme for each individual name. I think this is also consistent with most current atlases, Mapquest, MSN Maps, and Terraserver, and also with the observation at Wikipedia:Naming#Ukrainian_names.

Lately I've been considering suggesting changing this to use the official simplified National form (see footnotes of the Romanization table), and retaining the formal transliteration next to an article's Cyrillic (Just the way this article looks, at the moment). But this should probably find consensus on Wikipedia:WikiProject Subdivisions of Ukraine, before starting to move individual articles. —Michael Z. 2005-03-29 01:00 Z

Sorry, I did not know about the Subdivision of Ukraine Project. I will post proposed changed there for discussion in the future. As for this article, I appreciate if you don't move it back for now. Lets discuss this of course, but it seems that 246 mentions in major papers shows that there is a "commonly used English name". I specifically checked "major papers only" in my LexusNexus search because, unlike multitude of internet news sites, major papers do have the style policy and are staffed with editors who check for style consistency. Of course, this is a matter of debate whether accepted English usage is the same thing as "English name" and whether 246 mentions in two years in about 50 major papers establishes the English usage.

BTW, if we use similar criteria, the second largest city in UA should be called "Kharkiv" in WP, rather than Khar'kov, Kharkov, Harkov, etc. I just noticed that you did this change and I agree with it. Perhaps, when referred to in connection with many historical events, the WP usage should be "[[Kharkiv|Kharkov]] (currently Kharkiv)". However, the current English usage favors Kharkiv over Kharkov with a similar margin as Dnipropetrovsk over Dnepropetrovsk.

Lets wait until other editors voice their opinions and decide on what this title should be. Of course, if someone feels too strong about this and can't wait, s/he can move the article back anytime. I will not do anything further with the title until we conclude this discussion. In the meantime, I will try to fill the section stubs in the city history with useful information and hope other editors will help. Cheers, Irpen 01:26, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] On WP naming conventions

After reading more carefully Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) and it's talk page, I would like to elaborate a little on how I would interpret it as applicable to this discussion. Here is what the policy says (italicization is mine):

"If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article (as you would find it in other encyclopedias). This makes it easy to find, and easy to compare information with other sources. For example, Christopher Columbus, Venice.

If there is no commonly-used English name, use an accepted transliteration of the name in the original language. Latin-alphabet languages like Spanish or French should need no transliteration, but Chinese names can use Pinyin, for example."

The question we have is what is meant by "most commonly used English version of the name". Several interpretations are possible and we should simply choose how to interpret these words. Some names entered English through other means than transliteration of what's their today's name. Examples are Moscow, Warsaw, Germany, Finland, etc. Everyone agrees that there is no question what name to use for these places in English WP. Should we interpret the policy as applying only to those names and everything else should be transliterated from native language?

I interpret the words of the policy differently. The words "most commonly used" either apply only to the word "English" in the sentence or to the combination "English version of the name". Now, are Dnipropetrovsk and Dnipropetrovs'k two different English versions of the same name or they should be treated just as two different transliterations of one name? I think that while they certainly are two different transliteration of the same name, they are also two different versions of the name in English. The question is whether we accept that the way the place is most commonly called by the English media and among English speakers is the "most commonly used English version of the name". Or should we call all these versions "not English" because they originate from another language. Basically it comes down to this: "Does Днiпропетровськ, the town in Ukraine, have its own English name (or several English names for that matter)?". Or perhaps it has only a Ukrainian name and, when the journalist writes about it in English, he transliterates Днiпропетровськ each time on the fly. I think the answer is that he uses an accepted English version, which for this city is a transliteration of its Ukrainian name.

Now, what about the "If there is no commonly-used English name..." clause in the policy? I think it applies to places that are so infrequently mentioned that the standard way to call them did not crystallize. I do believe that serious media sources do not transliterate each time they mention the name of the foreign place. They have specific names to use. Those may evolve. Like the name Gypsy evolved into Roma. Like Dnepropetrovsk evolved into Dnipropetrovsk. Like Kiev may evolve into Kyiv. I think that for the very similar reasons what Britannica chooses for the article names matches the results of my LexisNexis search. The policy also says "as you would find it in other encyclopedias". I am not saying that LexisNexis and Britannica are bulletproof authorities to answer questions about English usage. But they are strong indicators. A simple Google search is more prone to errors for the reasons well known and, I think, Google results mean anything only when the difference is overwhelming.

So, I think we should transliterate in WP only for relatively obscure places which are not mentioned much in English texts. I hope this is going to crystallize into a less ambiguous text of the policy. And only for the names that are used in English very infrequently the discussion on the best transliteration rule should come into play. Of course this all is just my opinion. I am not a specialist in the field, not a veteran of WP and not a native speaker of English. But this is how I understand what is meant by the Policy. Luckily, the policy is not as rigid as constitutions, which are so hard to change that high courts spend all their time figuring out the "correct" way to interpret the text. I do not have skills to write a new version of the policy to propose to the community but I think this is going to happen sooner or later. Regards, —Irpen 06:24, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the policy is represented by your first case. Remember that it speaks to all article titles, not just place names. English names are Moscow, hammer, oak, and not Moskva, molot, and Quercus. But Arctotis does not have a common English name, so it is named in Latin. If it hit the news it would still remain a Latin name. And incidentally, the convention only refers specifically to the naming of articles, and not other usage.

The only geographic names in Ukraine which are well-established enough to have their own English names are "Ukraine" (which I'm guessing was once a German transliteration), and "Dnieper" (which looks to me like a less-awkward to pronounce by Anglophones transcription of Russian Dniepr). All others that I can think of are simply transliterations from Ukrainian or Russian. The most well-known one, "Kiev", is hotly defended against "Kyiv" by Wikipedian Anglophones, because they've actually heard of it before, and they're offended by having to change their pronunciation. But even L'viv and Kharkiv seem to be obscure enough to hardly rate comment when used in place of the "traditional English" Lvov and Kharkov (although I wouldn't dare trying to change it to Kharkiv in a WWII history article).

Their obscurity is also the reason that their usage is so elastic in the press. As a national capital, Kiev is in their style manuals. But they just look up other place names in an atlas and drop the apostrophes, and most atlases now use Ukrainian names in place of Russian. I'm curious how highly Dnipropetrovsk/Dnepropetrovsk rated in LexisNexis, if one only consider the period before the Orange Revolution made the news.

Anyways, it's madness to name every place name this way. We have to use consistent standard, or Ukrainian place naming will be a mix of Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Yiddish, and possibly Tatar, Rusyn, German, Romanian, and Hungarian. Everything that shows up in a "major news source" will be transliterated without apostrophes, and every other name will either come from a recent English-language atlas or from an official Ukrainian government list, and so will have apostrophes for the soft sign. As Ukrainian towns hit the news, their apostrophes will fall away, and you'll spend all your time counting hits on LexisNexis. No one wants that, and it would definitely go against the word and the spirit of the Wikipedia naming convention.

we have an agreed standard, so let's stick to it. The Wikiproject is very quiet, and it may be no problem to change it if you propose to. In the mean time, I'm not going to bother moving this article, but it properly belongs at Dnipropetrovs'k —Michael Z. 2005-03-29 08:22 Z

Replied at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ukrainian_subdivisions#More_on_Wikipedia_naming_conventions_as_applicable_to_Ukrainian_names. Irpen 20:03, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Note: after seeing the link above I commented there that this was a good test of the naming conventions, but was referred to the more specific policy at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) (WP:NCGN). You should probably refer to that as the most relevant guideline. 70.15.116.59 (talk) 22:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Phonetic spelling

from talk:Irpen

I phonetically spelled out this word [1] because not everyone has a browser that can read the IPA script, not to mention many are not going to learn IPA anyway. The insertion I used was from the New Oxford American Dictionary. --LibraryLion 22:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I mistyped in my summary. I reverted you simply because this contradicts what we are using in other articles, so it breaks consistensy. If you think it is importnat, I, personally, don't have a problem with that if it is fine with others. It just looked strange. Nothing personal against your edit. --Irpen 23:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Correct Name of DNK in English

The correct name should be the one used by the majority of population of the city. That name is "Dnepropetrovsk" or even simply "Dnepr" because that is what majority of people use in the city. That is what most natives use in English as well. By naming the article "Dnipropetrovsk" you are catering to a very very small minority who want to push down an incorrect name down the throats of the natives.

If you think about it, the city was created by Russian decree and it is approximately inhabited by 90% Russian speaking population. Transliterating the name from Ukrainian doesn't make sense. Just like the Wikipedias section on Donetsk is transliterated from Russian and not from Ukrainian. I am from Dnepropetrovsk and it makes me sad that these so called "Ukrainian patriots" change the name of my lovely city. If anything it should be simply named "Dnepr" since that is what majority call it on the streets now days.

Naming the city with "Dnipro" is a farce.

13:39, 8 March 2007, 131.247.19.186

[edit] Explanation for the Two Names

Ukraina is a country of two languages:

• Ukrainian: Dnipropetrovsk is based on the Ukrainian language.
• Russian: Dnepropetrovsk is based on the Russian language.

Dnepropetrovsk is a Russian speaking city; therefore the usual English spelling is that of the Russian version.

B.T.W. the idea that Dnepropetrovsk has clean air is a joke. But it is a beautiful city, and I love it very much. --Toddy1 17:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The name used by the majority of the population is not mentioned anywhere in the Wikipedia:Naming Conventions as a factor in determining the article's titles. Otherwise, we would have had Moskva, Warszawa and Munchen as Wikipedia entries. What determines the prevailing English name is the modern media usage. --Irpen 05:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

There is no recognised "modern media usage" for Dnepropetrovsk. You are trying to force people to use your one.--Toddy1 19:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, there is. Media usage can be analyzed by many media search engines. I did that already and showed you the results. --Irpen 20:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

-- Google Search War : "Dnipropetrovsk" versus "Dnepropetrovsk"

Dnipro...: 547,000 Dnepro...: 1,270,000

I think the difference is clearly visible, which one is used more often. If you take a look at newspapers published inside the city like: "Dnepr Vecherniy", etc. You will see that the correct name is Dnepr, no one uses Dnipro. 16:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC) . 131.247.19.186 ---

[edit] Usage Data

I am still trying to understand why this man Irpen is so insistent on calling the city Dnipropetrovsk.

It would seem sensible to me to collect usage data. I looked at an English-language dating site [[2]] using by Ukrainian women. The advantage of this is that the forms are actually filled in by people saying where they live:

• Dnepropetrovsk 105
• Dniepropetrovsk 3
• Dnipropetrovsk 2

--Toddy1 19:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

In accordance with WP:NC(UE) we should use the most commonly used the name that is most commonly used in English for the article's title. The most objective way to determine the most common modern English usage is to analyze the usage of major players of the anglophone media market which are not the dating sites, but CNN, AP, Reuters, BBC, NYTimes, etc.

The analysis of such usage is precented above at #How the city name is spelled in English. You can also find a detailed discussion here. Dnipropetrovsk should be used in English encyclopedia for the same reason as Kiev (not Dnepropetrovsk of Kyiv). This name is used predominantly my the media and other encyclopedia. Please reread WP:NC(UE).

This does not preclude the usage of other names in the article's text in the proper context. In WW2 articles Dnepropetrovsk would be correct to use as the WW2 literature used it. But modern usage changed and the article's title should be based on the modern usage. More at your talk.

Also, to answer your question, I have no direct relation to this city. --Irpen

Aviation-Safety website for Dnepropetrovsk Airport uses the English language "Dnepropetrovsk Airport"--Toddy1 20:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

That may very well be so. But we have to come up with a universal criterion. Are you suggesting it to be dating sites? Or should the Wikipedia usage be determined by "Aviation-Safety website for Dnepropetrovsk Airport"? I don't have any better suggestion than to follow the major media. I analyzed their usage above and they seem to use Dnipropetrovsk. --Irpen 22:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The issue of naming is deeply political. There are parallels with Yugoslavia.

Where English language media have people based in Kiev, it is inevitable that they will use the Kiev name for places, where they are not aware of an accepted English language name.

Your various references to Wikpedia guidelines would seem to suggest that the guidlines need modification.--Toddy1 23:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If the major media being based in Kiev affects their usage, why is not the usage affected for the Kiev itself? Ukrainian government and most Ukraine-based English-language media uses Kyiv but the western media uses Kiev. So, they do not use the "Kiev-name" for Kiev, but do for Dnipropetrovsk. This is a very strange logic. I have a more plausible idea. Ukraine is rather an obscure place for the world media and most of its placenames do not have the widely established names in English. That most media simply transliterate the national name is the best proof of that. Kiev, however, is well-known enough so that it does have a well-established name. Thus, media uses this name. Anyway, the media is the only objective way to determine the current prevailing usage and the name of the articles in Wikipedia is based the current prevailing usage. If you think that the guideline that require the prevailing usage to be the basis for WP naming is faulty I really don't know what else would you suggest as an alternative. --Irpen 01:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I did a search on Google.co.uk on the name, restricting it to UK sites in English, to determine the popularity in the English media on 19 March 2007. I got:

• Dnepropetrovsk 96,100
• Dniepropetrovsk 2,030
• Dnipropetrovsk 21,300

So it looks like the media uses the "e" (Russian) spelling. Mike Young 11:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

No, plain google search does not allow to evaluate the media usage since it cannot distinguish the usage in historic context from the modern context usage. Current media do just that. Google News would give you a better shot but still not the best one as Google News gives equal weight to the major players in the media market, like NYTimes and some local newspaper which is very little read and may not even have a written down manual of style and editorial staff to enforce it. The best way is to do major media search for, say, last 2-5 years. To do that you need special search engines and I do not know of any that is free. LexisNexis subscription service I used suggests Dnipropetrovsk is more common in major media. --Irpen 17:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The issue of whether it is current or historical is an easily met objection. You just search for the name and the year. I have done this both for 2000-2007 and also the years of the GPW and at ten year intervals between 1950 and 1990, to see how they compare. For pages from the UK the results are as follows:

Name	1941	1942	1943	1944	1945		1950	1960	1970	1980	1990		2000	2001	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007
Dnepropetrovsk	590	329	619	370	898		897	3,430	8,160	12,900	1,200		705	647	781	990	10,300	66,600	13,000	75,500
Dniepropetrovsk	30	26	111	22	31		56	24	76	94	115		173	188	151	198	167	248	270	131
Dnipropetrovsk	288	192	164	242	245		738	567	284	7,650	488		624	678	2,700	1,590	546	505	707	749

This is really interesting, because it seems that in the years covered by Irpen's research, that the Ukrainian-language spelling may have been more common in English pages, however for some reason the spelling used by people who actually live there and do business there is now accepted current usage.--Toddy1 19:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I also took Irpen's suggestion of Google news for five years. However, he is completely correct to be suspicious of it. Not only are there very few hits, but many of the hits are from the Kyiv Post, which is not exactly a good guide as to how to spell English-language spelling of the name of a city in the blue (Russian-speaking) zone of Ukraina. The various business web sites, etc in a normal Google search of UK sites are a much more reliable source of what is generally accepted English usage.

Name	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007
Dnepropetrovsk	1	1	2	6	5
Dniepropetrovsk	0	0	1	0	0
Dnipropetrovsk	0	5	8	13	10

--Toddy1 19:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Google hits if even sorted by year are not as reliable as media search. However, the opinion of the residents of the non-anglophone city is even less relevant to determine the English usage as most residents actually do not speak English. Modern English usage is set by major media and, yes, Kyiv Post is not one of them. I included on major papers from US, Canada, UK, Australia, etc. in my analysis and they still lean towards Dnipropetrovsk. Here is the list of the papers, LexisNexis consider "major". I know of no other tool that allows to restrict the media search only to really important media.

However, I am tired of this. If you are so interested in the city, please spend some time expanding the content of the article rather than on this endless arguing. If, however, you are so committed to push for the name change, and my arguments did not convince you, I suggest you reread Wikipedia naming conventions, do the usage analysis, make the best argument you can and submit it for WP:RM.

I made my points very crearly and the main one is that Dnipropetrovsk is the prevailing usage of modern major media and is also used by the Britannica. Oxford dictionary, etc. If you want to continue still, take it to WP:RM. --Irpen 20:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that renaming pages is the best way to go. People - please simply add information about different names in article and stop debating on page name. Our president was recently visiting Dnipropetrovsk, so it's clear how to name it. If somebody need Dnepropetrovsk city in Ukraine - you are welcome to buy land somewhere nearby and establish own city with own name ;-)

Summary: If you live in Ukraine - then respect Ukrainian law, if you live outside Ukraine please respect Ukrainians who has to respect Ukrainian law. If somebody here is willing to rename Ukrainian cities - start collecting votes for referendums, otherwise you are violating law and will be prosecuted. --TAG 22:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's a little over the top. Ukrainian law does not regulate the English language in general except for the documents issued by the Ukrainian government authorities which have to comply to the instructions established by the government. If you look up what the law actually says, it address a narrow issue what spelling the Ukrainian government bodies are required to use, no more, no less. Some Ukraine-based English language media use the spelling the gov uses in its own documents, some don't and they are free to do so as Ukraine is the country where press enjoys a reasonable freedom to do as they please. Non-Ukraine-based English language media are even more free to use what they please and they do use Dnipropetrovsk overall.

What establishes the English prevailing usage is the usage itself (sorry, I understand that this is a tautology but I know of no better way to say it). So, as long as the modern usage can be established we have to stick with it in accordance with WP:NC(UE). Modern usage is Dnipropetrovsk. UA gov may have affected that the usage changed, but we use Dnipropetrovsk here only because the usage did change whatever have caused it. --Irpen 23:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I've assumed that missed something and has checked law again:

"В офіційних документах, друкованих засобах масової інформації, картографічних, довідкових, енциклопедичних, навчальних та інших виданнях назви географічних об'єктів України передаються літерами латинського чи іншого алфавіту з унормованою державною мовою назв географічного об'єкта за правилами, встановленими спеціально уповноваженим органом виконавчої влади з питань географічних назв."

... Географічні назви, встановлені згідно з цим Законом, є обов'язковими для застосування органами державної влади, органами місцевого самоврядування, підприємствами, установами та організаціями, засобами масової інформації, а також у навчальних, картографічних, довідкових, енциклопедичних виданнях, оголошеннях, рекламах, вивісках, дорожніх покажчиках, поштових відправленнях та інших сферах їхнього офіційного застосування. ... Назви географічних об'єктів України як складова частина історичної і культурної спадщини Українського народу - громадян України всіх національностей охороняються державою..

Wikipedia is encyclopedia - and it's clearly listed in law.

If this law is not enough for you - read Constitution

Стаття 66. Кожен зобов'язаний не заподіювати шкоду природі, культурній спадщині, відшкодовувати завдані ним збитки.

... Стаття 68. Кожен зобов'язаний неухильно додержуватися Конституції України та законів України, не посягати на права і свободи, честь і гідність інших людей. Незнання законів не звільняє від юридичної відповідальності.. In my opinion trying to name cities based on their common usage is something as trying to rename New York City to Big Apple (because it's commonly used) or New Amsterdam (because it was name like this in the past). --TAG 12:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

---

If you think anyone inside the city cares about what this lame duck president says or thinks you are sadly mistaken. Using his words as an argument is clueless. He is not our president he is president of "Our Ukraine"... Prime Minister is the leader of the country at the moment.

           ------------------------------------------User:72.91.140.174 11:04, 23 March 2007

[edit] Dnepropetrovsk - deletion of street map and photos what you call "ugly houses"

Dima - have you ever been to Dnepropetrovsk? Don't you think that there should be pictures of normal apartment buildings? Or should it only show photos of apartment buildings for the very rich?

Maybe we should show only a fantasy version of Dnepropetrovsk - one with clean air, houses for millionaires, with well-repaired streets, and great public transport. In real life it takes someone who lives in Gladkova Street an hour to get by minibus to city centre during peak periods. (The journey is less than 10 minutes by taxi mid-morning.)

Also - don't you think that it is useful to be able to find a street map? Actually street maps are rather more useful that local government websites. When I looked in 2004, it was absolutely impossible to find a street map using Google - I just got adverts from travel companies. Unless Wikipedia helps people to find street map URLs, the easiest way to find them is to buy a paper map at a market stall in Dnepropetrovsk! --Toddy1 05:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

No I have not. I have lived only in Kiev in Ukraine. I dont't believe that we should show these apartment buildings.. Why uglyfy the article with old houses when words can do just about the same? If we decide to write an "architecture" section for the city, then perhaps we can write about what are the housing conditions, including the old and the new. I know that these "ugly houses" are commonly seen throught the city, and probably in most cities in the former Soviet Union..

Yes, the transport does take a lot of time, but look at what we have done at Kiev#Local transportation section... just included some text describing the conditions of transport, no images:

...while the other kinds of public transport are not that well maintained. In particular, the public bus service fails to maintain its schedule. Public electric trolleybus and tram lines are more reliable, but are also technically obsolete and underfunded.

I agree, it is useful to have a streetmap.. I only removed it from the infobox, which should only contain either "official link" or something like Verkhovna Rada link... If one wants to see more links, they can scroll down to the "External links" section instead. BTW, I would suggest that you upload your images to Wikimedia Commons so that other language projects can use your images. —dima/s-ko/ 02:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Dima Thank you for your reply. I have been editting and uploading photos showing the architecture of the city, and when I have a good selection, I will create an architecture section.--Toddy1 05:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Just keep in mind that WP articles are not galleries. Pictureless articles are not nice but articles cluttered with images are even worse. The number of pictures the article can accommodate depends on the amount of text. Nothing can prevent you from uploading as many pictures as you would like, but please include only as many as reasonable into the article. --Irpen 06:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I'm shocked with Odessa article content - so many pictures. --TAG 12:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I have added images to the article (historial, architectural, ect.) so now it should be pretty balanced. I agree Odessa has way too many pictures.. need of cleanup. —dima/s-ko/ 02:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I like it that the article on Odessa has all these pictures - though they are a bit Hello-magazine-like. One puzzle, why are there no pictures showing the houses people live in?--Toddy1 21:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

We have WikiCommons for pictures. There are simply no way to put all "nice" photos in one articles ! --TAG 21:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of "nice" photos. Can we have some that show what it is really like pls.--20.133.0.14 12:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Please add any "nice" or not pictures to Category:Dnipropetrovsk at Wikimedia Commons--TAG 13:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of User Comments

There is an allegation in the edit history as follows:

"Added back comments by another user which where deleted by [Toddy1]. Censorship of discussion page should not be tolerated.)" User talk:131.247.19.186

I did not delete comments by another user. I reinstated them after they had been deleted by someone else. This was why when you reverted my edit, the comments I reinstated got deleted.--Toddy1 21:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Best" time

The article gives a "best" time to visit, which sounds like a POV. For example, if you can say that is the peak of the tourist season that would be more informative. More explanation of why it is best would be good.

I imagine very few Americans have heard the name of this city outside of a Tom Lehrer song about Nikolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky... sad to consider, really. 70.15.116.59 (talk) 16:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

This 'best time' was cribbed from the city website. Unfortunately much of the article was generated by people who have never been to Dnepropetrovsk, but have very fixed views about what can be allowed in the article. The kind of buildings normal people live in are apparently not wanted.--Toddy1 (talk) 17:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Historic Manufacturing, Economic and Ethic Data on the City

Dima - I have found more stuff on the development of Dnepropetrovsk. Some of it is manufacturing and economic growth.

I have got two sorts of data. I have only got two data points for each right now, but more will probably come along some time. (I keep bumping into more population data.) What we need is a format for them, and it seemed a good idea to ask you if there is some standard way you want it, rather than me doing a load of stuff and you changing it because you know the right format and I am just groping for it.

Year	Factories & Plants	Employees	Production Volume[1]			Reference
			roubles	2007 £ million	2007 USD million
1880	49	572	1,500,000	£10.5 m	$21 m	[2]
1903	194	10,649	21,500,000	£177.5 m	$355 m	[2]

Year	Enterprises	Earnings[1][3]			Reference
		roubles	2007 £ million	2007 USD million
1900	1,800	40,000,000	£328.7 m	$658 m	[4]
1940	622	1,096,929,000	£2,120.3 m	$4,242 m	[2]

I have also found some stuff on ethnic composition round about 1897 and 1904. Do you know of data for other dates?

Year	Ethnicity of Citizens					Foreign Citizens	Reference
	Russian	Ukrainian	Jew	Polish	German
1897	47,200	17,787	39,979	3,418	1,438	1,075	[2]
1897	42.6%	16.0%	36.1%	3.1%	1.3%	1.0%	[2]
1904(?)	52%		40%	4.5%	Not Stated	Not Stated	[4]

--Toddy1 (talk) 22:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC) updated--Toddy1 (talk) 13:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

That looks pretty good, only we need to expand (and add) the respective sections (Economy and Demographics as well).. I have quite a lot of sources on the topic (history books, etc.) and I'll try to add some information as well.. —dima/talk/ 20:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)