Talk:Dmitri Linter

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Contents

[edit] Timeline

Your references contradict eachother. ITAR-TASS confirms that he was arrested on 28th, _after_ 2 nights of rioting, which is supported by Estonian media reports. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that this only proves that Estonian authorities organized this kidnapping, but latter were forced to acknowledge that this man was arrested. Probably they wanted to kill him. Vlad fedorov 09:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Paranoia. Estonian laws allow for 48-hour detainment - if police presents valid enough evidence to back up their claims within this time, the detainment will be prolonged by court (else the suspect will walk free) That's why the vast majority of detained rioters walked free the next morning - court considered the evidence on hand at the time insufficient for full arrest. It appears that Linter was detained on evening of 27th, with court accepting the evidence presented on 28th. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 12:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Did I mention paranoia? Edgar Vares-Barbarus 12:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

There are no non-Russian sources verifying this. Considering that otherwise Estonian newspapers have followed arrest of Linter very closely and reported every detail, several of these claims are rather questionable.

For example, the claim that "After two hours after his detention Linter appeared in the Mustamäe hospital under an intravenous line." is a lie, he was taken to the hospital because he claimed to have "various ills", he was given a full medical and declared healthy ([1]). Also, the arrest was announced on the same day, not next day (same source, also Russian sources). DLX 19:43, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, the original source with interview of Marina Linter, weekly Den za Dnjom [2], specifically mentions that the article is based solely on claims by Marina Linter and although she has promised to present the evidence to the journalist, she has not done so. She claimed to know the name of "psychotropic substance" injected to Linter, but refused to say that, the name of the doctor, but "couldn't remember". The article ends with a statement by journalist, repeating again that Marina has presented no evidence and the story sounds more like a bad spy novel. I couldn't find the story from the website of that weekly, as apparently they don't release full stories there. There are two Estonian translations ([3], [4]), but no English one, unfortunately. DLX 20:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Please read over your arguments again - they are discriminatory at least. Russian and Estonian sources are not reliable? Have ever read "Ilyad"? So, if it is written on ancient Greek it is not realible here? Please, familiarize yourself with WP:RS prior to editing in Wikipedia. If you have something to add to the article - add it, but don't prevent other users from doing it. Vlad fedorov 09:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
So far Estonian sources have been very reliable and reported only facts, whereas Russian sources have reported every rumor as a fact, as long as it is defamatory - such as that the Bronze Soldier was sawed into parts, exhumed bodies where thrown out, statue won't be put up again, police attacked peaceful protesters... do I have to continue? DLX 09:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Considering that in Estonia secret services are "preventing manifestations" (see you blog source below) why should we trust to such sources coming from totalitarian Estonian state? Your generalizations on "reliable" Estonaian sources are as ridiculous as your POV pushing in the article. We all seen how your police was beating protesters and by the way a lot of your policemen are writing about beatings in their LiveJournal blogs. Would you deny beatings despite revelations about this by policemen in their blogs? You won't win this dispute by revert war. Vlad fedorov 12:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Not protesters - vandals and criminals. Some of whom were paid to "protest" (the guy responsible for offering money was arrested together with Linter). And there are no "secret services are "preventing manifestations" ", this is not Russia. DLX 12:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
As long as I am a lawyer, I could tell you that criminals are sitting in the jail by the definition and couldn't walk on the streets or take part in manifestations. Second, your naming of some people as "criminals" is absolutely antidemocratic pattern of behaviour and is a libel and defamation - law-breaking behaviour. There is presuption of innocence in the Constitution of Estonia and you should abide your constitution, if you are citizen. Only court could name someone as "criminal". It is outrageous that a citizen of a country which names itself as "democratic" violates its own Constitution and behaves like a citizen of totalitarian state. As for "paid", as long as we know Estonia receives large subsidies from EU. So, your reference to "paid", unsupported by any evidence, is a typical "look who's talking" case. Vlad fedorov 12:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, yes, I forgot, looters and thieves are heroes in Russia. Sorry, my bad, won't happen again. DLX 12:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I am not Russian, so I don't understand why you resort to personal attacks on Russians. As far as I remember history, when Estonia was a territory for Teutonic order, aborigenes of these lands also were referred to in Order documents as pagans and bandits. It is sad that you repeat medieval occupier's pattern of behavoir. Vlad fedorov 12:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The leader?

I understand that Mr Linter may be one of several "leaders" (or notable activists) representing the movement. --Camptown 10:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

One of several, aye. He's been active for quite a while before NW was founded, of course. Here's a quick peek into his Latvian period: http://www.allaboutlatvia.com/article/604/the-latvian-connection. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 22:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh how nice - blog entry as a source? You must be at big rats with WP:RS. And by the way I like this qoute "In May 2005, the security services prevented a manifestation before the Latvian embassy in Estonia...". In "democratic" countries such as Estonia, secret services are acting to prevent manifestations? Perhaps it should go to Human rights in Estonia. Vlad fedorov 09:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The Balts who wrote this made a good job in presenting their state as an "ethnofascist" police state. -- Petri Krohn 01:04, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The 'manifestation' was unsanctioned, and designed to be disruptive. Not acceptable. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 12:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I would like to user checkIP procedure for DLX, probably 194.106.126.242?

I could see that after my dispute with Estonian DLX and subsequent his reverts, out of nowhere anonymous Estonian user appears and sets a new tag without any explanations. Also suddenly Polish users appear out of nowhere. Is it out of Wikipedia canvassing? Vlad fedorov 12:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

http://www.ripe.net/whois?form_type=simple&full_query_string=&searchtext=194.106.126.242&do_search=Search

% This is the RIPE Whois query server #2. % The objects are in RPSL format. % % Rights restricted by copyright. % See http://www.ripe.net/db/copyright.html % Note: This output has been filtered. % To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag % Information related to '194.106.126.240 - 194.106.126.255' inetnum: 194.106.126.240 - 194.106.126.255 netname: ITKOOLITUS descr: IT Koolitus descr: Parnu mnt 139f descr: 11317, Estonia country: EE admin-c: HS901-RIPE tech-c: GK1206-RIPE status: ASSIGNED PA mnt-by: AS5546-MNT source: RIPE # Filtered person: Henn Sarv address: IT Education Ltd. address: Akadeemia tee 21 address: EE0026 Tallinn address: ESTONIA phone: +372 6 397 078 fax-no: +372 6 397 078 e-mail: henn@itedu.ee nic-hdl: HS901-RIPE source: RIPE # Filtered person: Gren Kass address: MicroLink Eesti AS address: Parnu mnt 158 address: 11317 Tallinn address: Estonia phone: +372 6501 720 fax-no: +372 6501 725 e-mail: gren@online.ee nic-hdl: GK1206-RIPE mnt-by: AS5546-MNT source: RIPE # Filtered % Information related to '194.106.96.0/19AS5546' route: 194.106.96.0/19 descr: MicroLink Online descr: Parnu mnt. 158 descr: 11317 Tallinn descr: Estonia origin: AS5546 mnt-by: AS5546-MNT source: RIPE # Filtered % Information related to '194.106.96.0/19AS3249' route: 194.106.96.0/19 descr: MicroLink Online descr: Parnu mnt. 158 descr: 11317 Tallinn descr: Estonia origin: AS3249 mnt-by: ESTPAK-MNT source: RIPE # Filtered

Sorry to disappoint you, but wasn't me - not my IP, too. DLX 12:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
And this is a thing to be checked. Probably you switched from ADSL to dial-up, right? And by the way, why you then attacked Russians? What is the reason? Vlad fedorov 13:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
This is my (ie, DLX) IP: 88.196.48.66 13:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC) But please go ahead and call checkIP, you won't believe me anyway. Oh, and I don't have dial-up...
As for the attacking, please go and see irony. Also, you have been constantly attacking Estonia/Estonians - "Estonian authorities organized this kidnapping". In any case, enough of this already. DLX 13:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Well it appears form the sources in the article that estonian authorities done that kidnapping. But your attemtps to present your personal attack on Russian users of Wikipedia as my attack is laughable. Instead of working on the content you resort to "strong words" and instead of providing the explanations you resort to the accusations of me attacking Estonians? You should have a really big nerve making such attack. I believe that this is really enough for you. Your personal attack one more time, and I would report you on Incident noticeboard. Vlad fedorov 13:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
And additionaly, you, yourself gave us the reference to the blog which stated that in Estonia, secret service performs function of preventing manifestations - this is a clear violation of human rights. So we have a good reason not to believe to estonian authorities. Vlad fedorov 13:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
*sigh* Could you please be clearer in your statements? What blog? What secret service? The rioters were dispersed by the regular police - in Russia, I believe it is OMON, who does that. No force was used until rioters attacked the police, trying to break through. In Estonia, "secret service" does not commit murders - neither poisoning with polonium or shooting on the way to home. In case of Linter, it is very clearly in interest to Estonia to treat him well - not kill - and demonstrate his ties with both Russian embassy ([5],[6]) and (alleged - I doubt they can demonstrate anything) ties with organized crime.
Linter's apartment was searched on 27th April ([7]) by KAPO (Kaitsepolitsei, Security Police). The material found was evidence enough to arrest him on the eve of same day ([8]). Next day (April 28th), court allowed to extend the arrest (up to 6 months), as there was evidence of him as an organizer of mass riots [9] (that is probably why some sources have 27th and others 28th). He claimed to have "medical conditions", so he was taken to a hospital and given a full medical. Doctors declared him healthy. Allar Jõks (perhaps Chancellor of Justice?), man known for honesty and being critical of government, visited him on 29th. Linter did not have any complaints about his arrest, he was in same kind of cell as other detainees [10],[11](offtopic: you might be interested that by far most jail and prison guards are ethnic Russians). Police has promised to release all relevant material to public, as this is obviously a very high-profile case - that also guarantees that he will not be abused in any way. If found guilty, he faces up to five years in prison.
Together with Linter, Maksim (b. 1975) (Maxim Reva, according to Itar-Tass) and Mark (b. 1989) were arrested. According to quality daily Postimees, latter is Mark Sirõk (Siryk by Itar-Tass), who was sending SMS's before riots, offering 80 EEK/hour for "guarding" the Bronze Soldier on Thursday (26th, about $7/hour).
Original interview by weekly Den za Dnjom was very clear about that all claims by Maria Linter are unverified, although she promised to offer evidence about many details, including name of the doctor, what "psychotropic substance" was injected to Linter and so on. She has not done so. However, Russian sources cited in the article print all that as verified facts - also, as an example of accuracy and NPOVness of Russian press, Itar-Tass claims that "In fact, the unrest came as a result of the decision of the Estonian authorities to dismantle the Monument." whereas the decision to relocate the monument on the night of 26th was made after the riots, in hopes to stop further vandalism.
(Restored inline comment)
This is the one thing in the Estonina point-of-view that most reminds me of Hitler; pushing the lie that somehow the relocation was the result of the protests, when everyone knows the causality was the other way around. I do not know if this meets the criteria for the Big Lie, but in my eyes, Estonians are fast loosing all credibility. -- Petri Krohn 00:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri, please do not edit comments left by others. And thank you for your nice comparison to Hitler - you are aware of Godwin's Law, I hope? Please stop your POV pushing and constant petty insults - and perhaps, if you don't have anything to say about topic at hand, then do exactly that - ie. say nothing. You are not presenting neither truth or NPOV, you are pushing your petty little hatreds as it has been shown several times in Bronze Soldier article talk already. Now you have reached status that you might be telling the truth, but because of your previous actions, no one won't believe or trust your edits. DLX 04:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
That should cover adequately the material relevant to Dmitri Linter. Sorry, that the sources are in Estonian - there are probably translations to Russian in Estonian press (Postimees, for example, has a Russian version as well), but the whole incident didn't even register in global scale - client from England, who came to Estonia yesterday, was totally surprised, that something like that had happened. Nothing about it had been published in UK's press in front pages or been in a notable position in the TV news. DLX 15:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Would you be able to expand the article using your sources? I am sorry but neither me nor (AFAIK) Vlad list Estonian in our language skills. Pietri being a native Finnish speaker may have a better luck in reading Estonian sources but still the languages are different. I am changing POV tag to Expand Alex Bakharev 23:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I gladly would, providing that I will find time at some point... been stealing time during work to edit Wikipedia, really cannot do this all the time. However, I am afraid that users like Petri or Vlad will just delete everything contradictory to their beliefs - and we would end up with another edit war. I will try to present an alternate view, though. DLX 04:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Vlad, for a 'lawyer' you sure can't read well. It was me, not DLX who posted that blog entry. I don't claim it to be a 'valid' source, but purely presented it as a hint that the 'golden boy' isn't a random youth activist, but has a history of organizing disruptive unsanctioned manifestations abroad. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 12:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I though that in democratic countries there is a freedom of meetings (manifestations). You know in Oxford people manifest just because they don't want animals to be used at the Oxford University laboratories, and no one labels these people as "disruptive and unsanctioned". You message only confirms that Estonia in its level of development is at the same level as Russia, at least. If not worse. In Russia OMON (internal affairs body) deals with manifestations (not all), but in estonia - security services? For God's sake, Estonia is a tyranny. Vlad fedorov 04:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
What are you talking about? Security police were not involved in controlling riots - and "freedom of meetings" requires meetings to be registered - same as Russia and elsewhere. And unlike in Russia, unregistered meetings are, as a rule, just under more police surveillance - OMON seems to usually disperse those in Russia. Naturally, after violent riots, unregistered meetings were dispersed as well - but even now that has stopped. Unregistered "manifestation" was peaceful even according to Russian sources, until drunk protesters tried to break through police wall (and that is regular police, not Security).
Security police was involved in Linter's case, as he had meetings with Russian ambassador/staff prior to the riots/protests that he helped to organize. Mark Sirõk is a commissar of Nashi in Estonia - and dealing with neo-Nazi/neo-Stalinist and extremist groups are of course done by Security police. DLX 06:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity

There's a factuality question tag next to the statement of Mr. Linter's Russian ethnicity. What is the question here? Digwuren 07:24, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Linter is a Russian activist, but Petri Krohn pushed to add an word "ethnic". It could be not correct as by some sources Linter himself has claimed to Estonian, some sources have said he's Jewish origin. However, it's up to Petri to prove the ethnic origin of Dmitri Linter. I personally propose to remove both, the tag and the word "ethnic".80.235.65.41 07:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Find those "some sources" first. Digwuren 09:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Linter is of Russian heritage, but a natural born Estonian citizen, as his ancestors were citizens before WWII. 'Ethnic' is not entirely irrelevant, as it helps disambiguate between the two meanings of 'Russian'. Maybe word it something like 'a Russian activist of Estonian citizenship'? Digwuren 08:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish immigrant?

Sorry that I write on Finnish!

Anteeksi hr. Petri Krohn, mistä olette keksinyt, että Dmitri Linter on juutalainen immigranti? Jotkut virolaiset luulevat, että Linter on juutalainen sukunimi, mutta se voi olla (myös virolainen) mikä tahansa. Linter sanoo itsensä virolaiseksi, vaikka ei puhuu lainkaan eestiä (ilmeisesti isä on virolainen?).
Olisi hyvä jos tarkistaisitte sen, väärälla tietolla (tai huhuila) ei ole Wikipediassa paikaa!

Katsokaa tätä videota http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_pWFAirJto&mode=related&search=, onko todella vaaleantukkainen mies juutalaisen näkyinen?

Bennov 23:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC+3)

The "Jewish immigrant" part was added by an anonymous vandal. Linter was born in Tallinn, and thus, not an immigrant; furthermore, he has at least one ancestor that was citizen of Estonia before the Soviet occupation, and thus, he is a natural-born citizen.

Face-analyses to determine someone's ethnicity are inherently unreliable and not recommended. As for Jewish ancestry, it is certainly possible Linter has some, but without sources it's at best speculative, and his public identity does not appear to mention it. In any case, it's of minor significance. Digwuren 09:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Status

The Finnish Wikipedia categorises Linter as an Estonian politician. I believe this is misleading, as Linter has never held a political elected seat, and does not have political influence. It may be prudent to remove the category, and go for 'Estonian activist' instead. Digwuren 09:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Again Jewish

The anonymous vandal IP 206.186.8.130 was added "Jewish Russophone political activist in Estonia". Linter is Estonian and a natural-born citizen of Estonia. Bennov 16:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC+3)