User talk:Dmadeo

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Contents

[edit] Sacks spiral

A tag has been placed on Sacks spiral, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because the article appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate, such as articles for deletion. If you can indicate how Sacks spiral is different from the previously posted material, or if you can indicate why this article should not be deleted, I advise you to place the template {{hangon}} underneath the other template on the article, and also put a note on Talk:Sacks spiral saying why this article should stay. An admin should check for such edits before deleting the article. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Please read our criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 4 under General criteria. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. We welcome your help in trying to improve Wikipedia, and we request you to follow these instructions. —David Eppstein 04:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RHPs vs. Landmarks

This is the official NPS NY NHL list if you need a reference to check. Daniel Case 02:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! dm 02:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Good for you. Let me know if and when you've got those ones I mentioned to ShankBone ... I think as NHLs that they should get some priority. (I've already got a contemporary one of Dyckman House at the other end of Manhattan).

I envy you working down there ... so many of those locations are within walking distance of each other.

I see you're uploading to the Commons ... good. You should probably put them into Category:Registered Historic Places in Manhattan when you do (I've done it for the Barbizon pic for you, and then went on a sudden Commons categorization and category creation binge). Daniel Case 05:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moves

Well, the name "43 West St" wasn't even in accord with how we name places known by address. I think we should follow the naming conventions used by the NPS when they make most of their NHL designations. 463 West Street was NHL'ed for Bell's involvement with the building. New York has many buildings popularly known by a past use. Only real estate people generally refer to buildings by their street address unless they've made that part of the building's brand name.

We should discuss this on the NRHP talk page. It is my position that articles should only be named after a building's street address if that's how they're listed in the register (as in "House At ..."). I see your point, but let's get consensus either way. Daniel Case 00:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

That discussion you added to was more about state-by-state disambiguation (i.e., to what extent do we follow the conventions of other projects in naming articles about something where there may be more than one entry by that name in different states, or even in the same state?). What we need to discuss is the issue you raised ... in a place like New York City where a building may be better known locally by its street address, do we use that instead of whatever name the NPS has given it? I'd like to say we should defer to it at all times, but as you probably realize as much as anyone else who's done these articles is how sloppy the NPS can be sometimes. So we have to clean it up.Daniel Case 05:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Players

Thanks for getting involved. The page looks quite handsome now -- JohnClarknew 21:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] hamilton custom house

glad to see that you added that picture. such an amazing building. Tfine80 14:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NY NHLs progress

I saw ... you're being a big help. For my part, I have gotten the state NHL list up to include all or almost all of what's on the NPS list. Thanks to what you're doing down in the city we have blue links for almost all the Manhattan NHLs.

And you're sort of reminding me, by doing this, to get up to Poughkeepsie before the summer ends (maybe even this weekend) and get pics of the ones up there. I got up to Hurley a couple of weeks ago and took pictures; creating the article will have to wait until I get to it (thanks to good summer weather, I've gotten tons of images of local NRHPs in Orange, Ulster and Dutchess counties, and other pics we need. A lot of them require that articles be created around them). I've pulled out a separate article on Historic Track as a way of improving all the Goshen articles.

I have some ideas for what we can do with the NY NHL list that I'll probaby put on the talk page. Daniel Case 13:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations on finishing out Manhattan's NHLs. Daniel Case 04:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Almost didn't notice (but did you get them with the ones you did today?).

BTW, I renamed two of them ... Founder's Hall to go by proper naming conventions, and Duke Ellington House because everyone uses his nickname and that would thus be how it's commonly known. Daniel Case 04:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi...Thanks for your suggestion about presenting additional NHL / NRHP info within references. I just tried that in editing the Carnegie Hall article just now. Any further comments would be welcome.doncram 16:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Somehow it doesn't show who added the comment, but was it you who asked on my talkpage: "Also, are you removing references like [1] on purpose? If so, why? I noticed you did it on Central Synagogue as well as one other entry. Thanks"? Well, yes, i see that I did that on the Central Synagogue article. By the placement of the reference, it seemed to be documenting only that the refnum was the correct refnum, which seems to me unnecessary to document separately. The refnum can be verified in reference 5, the link to the NHL summary on Central Synagogue, so it is not without documentation generally, and I don't think it is a fact that readers of the article would question. Note i did at the same time add a reference to the field just above, the date the site was added to NRHP, which struck me as a mildly more important fact to document, and one not included in the NHL summary on Central Synagogue. Relatedly, I also have been deliberately replacing some similar references to the PDF list of New York National Historic Landmarks at the National Park Service, which seemed to serve only the purpose of documenting the date of NHL addition of a site, replacing that with a link to the NHL summary for the particular site that I believe is more informative for a reader to access. I guess I think these changes are beneficial. I do wonder if a more general discussion of what references to include on the NYS NHL articles, and how to present them, would be helpful, on the WP:NRHP talkpage. For example, I wonder if there is a suitable place on each article, perhaps under a "See Also" heading, for a link to other NHLs in the area, as in the reference you questioned my removing.doncram 00:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Morris-Jumel Mansion: I saw it was on a list to be evaluated, visited and made some changes. I added some comments to its talk page. Thought i was writing to the original creator of the article, but then see it was you who put it up for evaluation, so I thought I would let you know. doncram 01:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Florence Mills House: Nice work on that article. I added stuff, and took a bit tougher line on the fact that the landmark site was the wrong address. Am corresponding with Bill Egan, who says he will provide more definitive documentation, citable, that the landmarked address was incorrect. doncram 01:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biltmore Theatre

Hello! Did you design the template for the NRHP infobox? If so, it needs a line that allows images to be reduced to a size in keeping with the article. Right now the picture of the Biltmore Theatre overwhelms the article, but I can't figure out how to make it smaller. Other infoboxes have a line labeled "image_size=" and you can add "150px" or "200px" or whatever is reasonable. Also, this article is too short to be broken up into three different sections. Please try to make the picture smaller, it really is overpowering the text. Thank you. ConoscoTutto 16:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Times Square

Hi. I am wondering why you keeping removing TimesSquare.com. We are located in Times Square, 300 W 43, write about it's history, and cover current events there such as theater, movie premieres, restaurants, product launches, etc. We are not non-profit but neither is most of Times Square. We are a legitimate, modern publication living in and covering contemporary Times Square. We are a resource to Times Square today. Look at our pictures covering the opening of Ripley's Odditorium or the Hard Rock. Please explain why you keep removing this link. It is not spam. -- Brooks Williams —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.2.36.153 (talk) 22:57, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

I'd reply on your talk page, but you dont have one, instead you keep showing up as an anonymous editor using different ip addresses. The only thing you ever do is put in a link to your site. Your site seems perfectly fine, except it has nothing to do with an encyclopedic article about Times Square. I suggest you read WP:EL carefully, as I believe it will answer your question of why I (and others) keep removing non-useful links. If you have further questions, let's take it to the talk page on times square... dm 00:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


Thanks for answering back. I am not trying to be anonymous (I signed my name), but I had not intended to be a regular Wiki contributor. I will look into setting up my own talk page and read over the [[WP:EL] and see if TimesSquare.com does not qualify as a useful link.

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Visitor attractions in New York City

Template:Visitor attractions in New York City has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Wl219 20:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thayer Hotel

There's a good reason you couldn't find a listing for it ... contrary to what the hotel says on its website, it isn't on the National Register in its own right, merely (I suppose) as a contributing property to the USMA NHL. It probably should be, but it isn't.

So, in the meantime, I changed the infobox to {{Infobox Modern building}} and added it to my newly-created Cat:Buildings and structures in Orange County, New York, where I could use a few buildings and structures that aren't on the Register. Daniel Case 02:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] St. George's Church: Photo?

This NYS NHL in Manhattan lacks a photo. You created the article, did u have a photo but forget to upload it? It's the only Manhattan one that i have come across lacking a photo, have been marching through them all slowly, editing in NRHP materials. Regards, doncram 05:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that. Now, the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire building lacks a photo... seems like it had one or two but following discussion on commons they were dropped, see talk page for the site. Can you get that one? On Washington Place in Manhattan. doncram 13:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] thanks for cleaning up NJ landmarks

I was obviously typing too fast :) dm 05:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Why type if you can cut and paste? Thank's for creating the article. Alansohn 05:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chester A. Arthur House/Home merger needed

Someone pointed out there was already a Chester A. Arthur Home article corresponding to the Chester A. Arthur House article. They need to be merged. I think your and my material in the House version ought to be edited into the Home version, so the Home version's slightly longer history of edits will be preserved. I am not sure what to do about there being similar photos at the two. Yours is nice, and is closer up than the one that is in the infobox of the Home version. I kinda like the yellow cabs in the foreground of the Home version though, and that it shows the building from bottom to top, though from farther away. The narrow black and white photo in the Home version is good too, perhaps could be put on left side of article lower down. Do you want to effect the merger, or should I? I don't want to be deleting use of your photo without checking with you. About my stuff, I just want the NHL designation date in the infobox and the NRHP text and photo links in references transfered over. doncram 22:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] African Burial Ground NM

Hi,

I've been told, that African Burial Ground NM will be dedicated this Friday. May I ask you to take a picture or two of the memorial when you find the opportunity? Would you please be so kind to link a good one at de:African_Burial_Ground once it is uploaded to the commons? Just exchange the name of the old one (the site in construction) with the new name in the infobox, I'll write new captions once I see your edit on my watch list. TIA --h-stt !? 11:19, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I just saw a U.S. national TV news story on the dedication, so visited the article. Someone has updated it somewhat. It may be in news stories over next day or two. doncram 01:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I saw it on CNN this afternoon. I'll be back down there tomorrow, so will get another picture...dm 01:54, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I drafted a wikinews article about it, and an editor cleaned it up, added a photo from the artist's plan for the monument, and published the article as African burial ground in New York City dedicated as National Monument. Indeed, it would be great if you would add a photo of real thing to the wikipedia article. Honestly, I am not sure what is etiquette for editing the wikinews article once it is "published" but I expect it is fine and good to add a new photo and hence extend the news coverage. Notice, the article includes mention that there are 110 National Historic Landmarks in New York City. I worked that it and it survived the editing, I figure because the editor could see from List of National Historic Landmarks in New York City that the 110 number was a true fact. Thanks for your work in making that possible to say. doncram 19:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] President (steamboat)

You might find this link useful: Str. President -- ALLSTAR ECHO 18:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NYS NHLs

Hi Dmadeo (cc Daniel Case). Please note improvements to List of National Historic Landmarks in New York. For one thing, it now sorts properly. Second, it is now complete (I found the missing NHL, St. Peter's Episcopal Church (Albany, New York). Take a look at checklist to reach Featured List status that I just drafted in its talk page. In general, our NYS and NYC list of NHL articles are the only ones that have had extensive involvement by more than one person. I have been browsing around all the state-specific list of NHLs articles, contributing in places and developing some of them on my own, but the NYS and NYC lists remain the best in some ways and I would like to help consolidate what we have done.

Would you be on board for pushing to get Featured List status? Personally I would like to go for FL for NYS, then later go for FL for List of NHLs in NYC after learning from the process. My first consideration for going for NYS first is that NYS NHL list has what i feel is nice integration with the State historic sites (and each article for an NHL which is also a SHS has appropriate indications), while NYC NHL list does not yet have nice integration with NYC Landmarks (and there is no good list of NYC landmarks available AFAIK). A second consideration is that achieving FL status for NYS first would be a bigger deal in some ways, it is covering a bigger number. A third consideration is that it would be more differentiated from the prior achievement of FL status by List of Chicago Landmarks which is the most similar Featured List. (BTW, I have issues with that article, think ours can be and is better in various ways.) Would you be on board, and what do you think is needed to get FL status? Please add to discussion in "Towards Featured List" new section of the Talk on NYS NHLs list article, where I drafted a checklist. (P.S. if you want to bring NYC article along also or instead, please invite me, let's work via Talk page for it). Cheers, doncram 22:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Would you mind rating Adams Power Plant Transformer House, per request WP:NRHPA? BTW, I just followed up on your request for Morris-Jumel Mansion rating on that page. See also "Quality rating for NHL articles" new topic in Talk page of WP:NHRP. doncram 03:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Awesome work in adding geo coordinates for the NYS NHLs. I'll be on vacation from wikipedia for a while, including while visiting central NY. I am happy to be able to use your work to map my possible route to an NHL or two to take pics, if I have time.  :) P.S. Morrill not Morril Hall needs typo correction in its coordinate listing; Old Blenheim Bridge shows but not its label for me, in Google maps right now. Anyhow, really great work! doncram (talk) 21:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Another push now, perhaps, to bring up the quality of the NYS NHL articles? I wonder if you can help with writing in the list descriptions and the articles. Some articles have shorter text than their descriptions in the NHL list, unfortunately, tho most now have pics (new or HABS) and most have NRHP text documents linked as high quality potential sources. You've done wonderful work bringing NYC NHL list along, too, it makes me think they should both be proposed for FL status together (and brought up through peer review and anything else together on the way). doncram (talk) 06:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and asked for peer review on the NYS NHL list, including the NYC NHL list as a subarticle (hopefully to be considered by the peer reviewers as well). Peer review comment area should be opened up soon, then I will separately invite several people to participate, too. doncram (talk) 21:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The photos

The Bronson House is in the middle of a prison? Must be a Columbia County facility ... there are no state facilities around Hudson as far as I know. Perhaps we should ask the sheriff's department for permission.

I don't think all the archeological districts will be impossible to photograph ... we can reasonably guess where a place like Schuyler Flatts is, although Fort Massapeag would be hard (but there are some tantalizing clues in that article from the Times). I also think we should get in touch with some dive shops in Lake George and see if anyone they know has pictures of the Land Tortoise.

Thanks, BTW, for some of the recent photo additions. You must have been busy ... getting all the way up to Rochester over Thanksgiving! And then getting some of those other Hudson Valley ones. We still need some other ones but I'll see what I can do; however I'd rather wait till warm weather again. I like the one for Boston Post Road Historic District, although my personal preference is for HDs to be represented by an image of more than one building, but I wasn't there so I don't know if that would have been possible.

And also, good work in northern Ulster County, too. I have some more coming from the south, so we may be able to make a huge dent. I'm not sure that Opus 40 can be the subject of a free image, though, as freedom of panorama in the US doesn't apply to public artworks still under copyright (and it was built in 1940, so it's still under copyright). You might want to reupload here under {{Non-free 3D art}} and a fair use rationale. Daniel Case (talk) 07:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

You have been busy! Awesome work, in adding 5 photos just now to the NYS NHL list covering some Long Island sites including 2 ships and the Old House. And awesome also for your adding 5 or more pics for Brooklyn and Staten Island such as Voorlezer's House in the NYC NHL list last month. You have been doing great work, both in terms of quantity and quality. I appreciate it all. Currently it encourages me to plod along with HABS photo uploading in the NYS NHL list, as we are really getting somewhere! Cheers, doncram (talk) 14:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Saw your new pic for Susan B. Anthony House and new pic for Ganondagan State Historic Site. Those are great. The new Ganondagan one looks better when small, than did the old pic, also yours, though the old pic is really nice when enlarged, and then interesting to see it includes the same lodge-type building far away. Maybe i will try adding that back to the article now, if you don't mind? I already added back the old pic for Susan B. Anthony, too, as I think it adds by contrast to new one. I think having multiple pics is great for articles, like Elihu Root House and St. Peter's Episcopal Church (Albany, New York), even though the pics might currently outbalance the text. The solution for the imbalance is that the text should be expanded eventually. Thanks for pitching in with the peer review! doncram (talk) 21:24, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar

The Photographer's Barnstar
Awarded to Dmadeo for getting out to various parts of New York State and photographing National Historic Landmarks to make List of National Historic Landmarks in New York that much more complete. Daniel Case (talk) 15:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Hear, hear! doncram (talk) 06:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NJ NHLs

At WP:NRHP, you've listed several new articles on sites in List of National Historic Landmarks in New Jersey, but FYI you neglected to add them to WP:NRHP on their talk pages. I added some stuff to some of them, including a model link to the relevant NRHP text/photos documents with blanks left to fill in. Hopefully this is helpful. doncram (talk) 06:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Nice meeting you Sunday. I see you've created articles on most of the NJ NHLs. Just letting you know that tomorrow I may be in a position to take some pictures of Craftsman Farms and Thomas Nast Home. Daniel Case (talk) 22:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Update: Those pictures have been added to the articles and the state list. Daniel Case (talk) 15:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List article on HRS artists & 2007 Talk archive

Thanks for pitching in and creating the superb new List article on Hudson River School artists. Your work was very much needed and represents an outstanding contribution to the main HRS article. The new List article is the perfect place to list every HRS artist, both the major figures and the far more numerous minor ones, allowing the main article to deal as it should with only the more academically accepted and recognized artists of the HRS. As you know, the discussions attempting to sort out that "Selected" list of major HRS artists are still ongoing. While archiving older Talk page discussions are certainly a good idea, I hope you will agree that it would be helpful to WP readers to find this year's discussions on this year's Talk page. For that reason, I would like to reinstate all 2008 discussions (those dating from January 2008) to the current Talk page, so that they will not be misfiled under the newly created archive titled "Archive through 2007." Please accept the thanks of all WP readers interested in the art and artists of the HRS for your fine work thus far. Best regards, Jack Bethune (talk) 16:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Flatiron Building external link

Point taken. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 03:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Except you went too far. What have you got against linking to good photographs? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 03:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't want any more pics in the article, it has plenty, but there's no reason to deny people access to other photos, especially good ones. Because of copyright and other issues, not every graphic image is able to be uploaded to the Commons, but I have no objection if any you find that can be uploaded there are. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 05:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NYC meetup

I'll be there (as long as things go according to plan). Daniel Case (talk) 20:24, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Good to meet you yesterday. Keep up the excellent work with the historic locations, and give a shout if you need anything. --David Shankbone 17:07, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stub templates

Howdy! I see that you have been industrious in creating stub articles for National Registered Historic Places. Would you mind in the future using state-specific templates instead of {{NRHP-stub}}? If you go to Cat:National Register of Historic Places stubs, you will see the template format for each of the fifty states. As each template gains 60 articles, it will get its own category. Using the state templates will save us stub-sorters a whole lotta work. Thanks for considering it! Her Pegship (tis herself) 19:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Takes Manhattan postponed to Friday April 4th

All other details remain the same. Thanks.--Pharos (talk) 18:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I added some 5 or 6 pic requests for some NYC NHLs to the Wikipedia:Wikipedia Takes Manhattan/Goals. I included some that might be hard to get, like Quarters A, Brooklyn Navy Yard. If that is unfair to ask for, from afar, or otherwise should not be on the list, feel free to remove. Please feel free to review all my additions there. For each one added, I made sure to add reqphoto to the article's talk page. doncram (talk) 22:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Museums invite

You have been invited to join the Museums WikiProject, a collaborative effort focused on improving Wikipedia's coverage of museums. If you'd like to join, just add your name to the member list. Thanks for reading!

This complements NRHP so well ... how many of our entries, after all, are historic house museums? Oh, and the project page points to the NYC RHP lists as a good source of articles waiting to be created. Daniel Case (talk) 05:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Decker Building DYK

As Appraiser said, we need to get it to 1,500 (with spaces) characters of pure text. It isn't difficult ... I just got Farmer's and Manufacturer's Bank above the limit by really squeezing its NRHP nom. Have you looked at OPRHP's site to see if it has one? Daniel Case (talk) 14:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Updated DYK query On 14 April 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Decker Building, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Cirt (talk) 12:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 21 Astor Place

Hi -- There's a notability tag on 21 Astor Place, and it's on a list of articles for possible deletion. I wonder if it might be a contributing building in a historic district or otherwise defended from attack, such as by adding a photo and/or other info. I checked your List of RHPs in New York City and do not see it separately listed there, however. doncram (talk) 00:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Edward M. Cotter (fireboat)

It shouldn't be a problem to get a photo. The boat is docked where I can get some shots of at least one side. I'll drop you a note when I upload them.Shinerunner (talk) 11:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NYC nhl pics

Hey, congrats for rounding up a Quarters A, Brooklyn Navy Yard pic! I see that the List of NHLs in NYC is now completely illustrated, except for Wards Point. If you could email me separately (i have email link on my user page), i could provide some info about that not-supposed-to-be-publicly-disclosed location, by the way. doncram (talk) 22:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NYC Meetup: June 1, 2008

New York City Meetup


Next: Sunday June 1st, Columbia University area
Last: 3/16/2008
This box: view • talk • edit

In the afternoon, we will hold a session dedicated to meta:Wikimedia New York City activities, elect a board of directors, and hold salon-style group discussions on Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia projects (see the last meeting's minutes).

We'll also review our recent Wikipedia Takes Manhattan event, and make preparations for our exciting successor Wiki Week bonanza, being planned with Columbia University students for September or October.

In the evening, we'll share dinner and chat at a local restaurant, and (weather permitting) hold a late-night astronomy event at Columbia's telescopes.

You can add or remove your name from the New York City Meetups invite list at Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Invite list.

Also, check out our regional US Wikimedia chapters blog Wiki Northeast (and we're open to guest posts).
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 23:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] to nominate NY NHLs for FL

With completion by Lvklock's recent descriptions editing for the List of NHLs in NY, i want to put it up for FL now. Let me know if there's anything you'd like to take care of first, or if you will be very unavailable during the upcoming period of the review. I trust this meets with your approval. Cheers, doncram (talk) 21:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edward M. Cotter (fireboat)

I finally got the pictures and I've added them as a photo gallery until you decide how they look best.Shinerunner (talk) 23:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)