User talk:DLinth

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Hello DLinth! I am excited to see that you are a professional geographer, and I hope you will continue to make valuable contributions to Wikipedia. Our interests seem to overlap somewhat (see my contributions page if you like). Your contribution of precise figures for glacier lengths is particularly nice. That kind of contribution will be much more revert-proof if you provide an explicit published reference, by the way. Thanks again -- Spireguy 03:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Source please

Your edits to Siachen Glacier state that the glacier is only 70 km and not 80 km. In the interest of maintaining WP:CITE official policies here, you should cite ur sources.

I did. Dlinth

Again if you want to reintroduce those edits you need to source it from a reliable publication, either online or offline. Thanks. Idleguy 05:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand that you are doing your best to portray the truth, but see Wikipedia:Verifiability official policy that states "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.". You are pointing to measurements etc. that you've done (or others have) and are using it as a source which is nothing but original research which is also not accepted in Wikipedia.

Wrong. Explain to me why the three sources that I provide in the reference (you did see that, yes?) are not good enough for you: the detailed Swiss topographical map, the detailed Russian topographical map, and Google Earth imagery. When these sources are combined by a geographer with even limited expertise, virtually all doubt is removed regarding locations, the length of in this case a glacier, etc.DLinth 16:20, 07 December 2006 (UTC)

The sources you're citing like Bharat Rakshak and Rediff while good enough for me, might not be good enough for a pakistani reader or a third party editor who might suspect a biased source being used to push this fact. If you can cite a more credible source than these, then I'm sure no one would have a problem in accepting the facts. Idleguy 05:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Durand Line

Hi, you might remember me from such article talk page discussions as Durand Line. Long story short, someone has made some major modifications to this article to the point where i'm not even sure if it's factually correct. Can you please take a moment to review the changes and do whatever you think may be necessary to bring the article back to reasonable quality (and hopefully minus the issues which came up before). Thanks. thewinchester 08:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, like to take another look at this article? Someone from an anon IP address seems to have put some serious work into it and it would be good to get another opinion on it. thewinchester 22:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

Thank you for your improvements to the Iran-Iraq boundary article that I started. Danny 09:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shatt al Arab/Arvandrud move

Hi, I'm a WP newbian, and I'm at a loss. I started the poll on this a week or so ago, and I agree with your conclusion that the consensus and most relevant evidence pointed to a clear move. Yet the same individual who has been fighting his "Arvandrud should be the primary name fight" for years there simply reverted your move. Can anything be done? Thanks. DLinth 18:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Khoikhoi (talk · contribs) did not participate in the move request on the talk page (except when closing it) and has not been very involved in the article. I think you may have him confused with another editor. -- tariqabjotu 22:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
No confusion about Khoikhoi (talk · contribs). In fact, as experienced an editor as Khoikhoi is, he seems overly eager to relegate the consensus name for this article despite its worldwide usage. For ex., before the poll on this topic he had reverted or otherwise switched "Shatt al Arab" to "Arvandrud" or "Arvandrud/Shatt al Arab" on 1 April and 30, 28, 26 March, plus three times on 25 March. He suggested a poll, then when the evidence presented didn't "go his way", he simply reverted your move. Any suggestions for "awakening" Khoikhoi to the evidence, and for getting this article's nomenclature fixed so it no longer conflicts as it does now with most sources and reference material around the world? I "don't have a dog in this fight" other than, with my job as a geographer, it pains me to see WP articles out of step with accepted worldwide geographic nomeclature. (Keep getting logged out on my Mac here....I tried the "enable cookies" suggestion already....) DLinth 03:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Tajik at ArbCom

Hey, just thought i'd drop you a line. I was reading signpost this evening, and it seems that our favourite (sic) friend from the Durand Line article has ended up at ArbCom. Can I be the first person to say that i'm not suprised by this at all -- Thewinchester (talk) 18:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You'll be pleased to know - Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/E104421-Tajik#Tajik_banned Thewinchester (talk) 11:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quatern Island

Congratulations on spotting my fake article! However, the reasons you cited in the AFD discussion are incorrect. I was actually a History student, and it was an attempt to show how rapidly 'facts' and alternative histories can be created and propagated via Wikipedia. Puerile maybe, but it worked as a proof for 3 years! ----82.26.182.37 20:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC) (won't use my username as I am otherwise reputable with a huge number of good edits :) )

[edit] sebatik; territorial dispute change, also new disputes not entered yet, views please.

Noted the change to list of territorial disputes. I was under the impression that sebatik (jointly administered) was inclusive of the Sabah dispute. The Malaysian part is administered as part of Sabah. I have also discovered three other disputes:- one is that there are a couple of islands under Tanzanian control in Lake Malawi/Nyasa. As you may know, Malawi claims all of the Lake (ref CIA World Factbook) as theirs up to the Tanzanian wet/dry line; therefore, this would include the islands. One is called Mbamba Bay Island. Check Google Earth. Not added to Wiki yet. Secondly; Wadi Haifa area on the Egypt/Sudan border is apparantly in dispute. Not included in the 'Triangle' admin line dispute. Thirdly; there is an unnamed (Canadian administered) island on Google Earth (need to zoom in) south of Cape Muzon on the Alaska/British Colombia border. The 'A-B line' runs from the wet/dry Cape Muzon boundary. This border is disputed, and the Canadian island being due south of Cape Muzon would therefore be in dispute, even if this is dormant/uncontested. I'd like your views on all the above. Second opinions help. Raymi.

Hi. Not certain but unlikely that Sebatik (about as far away from the Philippines as you can get in Sabah) is included in the Phil claim.....the WP "Sabah Dispute" article says only the eastern part of Sabah (nearest Phil) is covered by the dispute. Regardless, it is simply part of the Sabah dispute and not a separate one and thus would not be listed separately (or we'd have to start listing every island name on the Egypt-Sudan Red Sea coast Halaib triangle area, every island in the Spratlys separately, etc.)
The addition of those Lake Malawi island(s) would make sense.
Wadi Haifa is a current dispute, but probably should just be added by name as part of the Halaib Triangle.....same dispute, same treaties: The treaty or political boundary, as defined by the Anglo-Egyptian Agreement of 1899, commences at the tripoint with Libya at the 25°W meridian of longitude and travels east as demarcated along the 22°N parallel of latitude until reaching the Nile River valley, where it forms a sixty-kilometer-long diversion called the Wadi Halfa or Arqin salient just north of the Sudanese town of Wadi Halfa. The salient follows down the Nile valley in a gentle northeast curve for twenty-seven kilometers, then, at approximately 22°12’12”N, cuts across the wide stream valley, then returns along the right bank until rejoining the 22°N parallel. At present, the waters of Lake Nassar (Egypt)/Lake Nubia (Sudan) branch out into the formerly dry ravines beyond the salient, depending upon the reservoir’s water levels. The gap at the base of the salient along the 22°N parallel is almost thirteen kilometers wide.
Despite the 1903 agreement language stating merely "Cape Muzon", there is some precedent for a "cape" or "point" being defined as the most protruding point on any island close to the mainland. That was the case with Cape Muzon, as I'm looking at (not available online) a detailed 1914 "Canada-Alaska Boundary Survey" surveyor's map/chart by the Canadian Dept. of the Interior which clearly locates point "A" (the western terminus of the Canadian claimed Dixon Channel international boundary) not on the mainland (actually the big Dall Island, Alaska's southermost big island) but on the southern tip of the tiny island to which I believe you refer (on Google Earth centered at 54-39-46N 132-41-04W.) So that island would not be in dispute, leaving this simply as a maritime dispute, not a land dispute. The surveyor's chart points out that the shorelines used are at low water; at high water, that tiny island is actually divided into three. There are no other points above even low water south of Point A. The surveyor placed a reference monument 162.5 ft. NW of Point A. (Probably not unlike the case of the 48 state's westernmost point, where there is a little island linked by a sand bar at low and mid tide to Cape Alava (Olympic Nat'l Park) and where the bronze survey marker is not right down in the rocky tidal zone but up on higher ground a bit.)
Keep up the thorough research!DLinth 16:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Raymi again here; will be adding the Mbamba Bay Islands in due course. I think Sebatik should be added, still, as it involves a third party. Happy with the Cape Muzon explanation, also Green Island. Wadi Haifa; part of the same dispute, I grant you, but not contiginous with the Hlaib Triangle; I think it should be listed separately, myself, but I won't be adding something until I am 99% sure. Thank you once again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.68.39.212 (talk) 07:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Even if "part of the same dispute", if non-contiguous, I certainly can see where one may want to add it separately (Wadi Haifa.) But Sebatik (and lots of other islands) are contiguous (separated by only very narrow water bodies) from Sabah, so I would think that only "Sabah" should stay in as a separate entry. All the other islands along the Sabah coast (not just Sebatik) could (but would not have to) be listed under the text for the Sabah dispute. Glad you noticed my Green Island work! DLinth 18:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Curious

These seems to be quite a mish mash of the variation of the interpretations of the extent of the Indian and Southern oceans - and none of the articles seem to adequately or sufficiently explain the overall issues - I do think it needs more discussion - at the australia, antartica, indian ocean and southern ocean talk pages - i wonder whatever happened to the ocean project - as this same issue occurs on internal waters inside indonesia - (almost like Timor being in the pacific ocean etc - not literally but it gets that far) SatuSuro 00:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a large amount of discussion and explanation of this on the Southern Ocean page.
You've got the right adjective for many geographic facets of WP entries....a mish mash. Fortunately (though I'm not quite sure why, as hydrography is but one part of defining oceans and other water bodies) this IHO organization seems to have nearly universal regard as to this authority (oceans, other international tidal water bodies, their names, and, much less so, their extent. So the water from the Australian coast south to the 60 degrees south line is called, with authority, the Indian Ocean. I noticed that appears even on the Tasmania WP map, the most extreme corner of the Indian Ocean. But because so many Australian maps and sources have their own habit of calling it the Southern Ocean, that term keeps creeping in to WP (and should be removed.) Good question about the ocean project.DLinth 17:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I beg to differ - OK so the crunch is you may well be adept at finding dubious secondary sources that put the indian ocean across the bass straight (or others vice versa) - and claiming the other is wrong. I think the whole thing needs the oversight of a third party in a place where the issue can be clearly outlined and explained somewhere in wikipedia - rather than removed. cheers SatuSuro 23:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Nat'l Geo, Times Atlas (UK-world's #1 atlas), Websters Geog Dictionary, CIA World Factbook - does not necessarily mean sources that are necessarily correct btw - there is always the possibility that a range of errors - in law and convention may well be perpetrated - numerous facts in the CIA factbook have been identified as patent nonsense SatuSuro 23:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's see....you characterize the world's most respected atlas, the U.S. most respected geographic authority, Websters, and the CIA FactBook as "dubious sources." While ignoring the fact that the world community (and WP community) recognizes the IHO as the authority over ocean body names/extents (extent as in their decision that the S. Ocean is from 60 S to Antarctica, not 35S (Australia's S. shores.) I've not seen you produce any contradictory sources or recognized authorities which, until you or other do so, makes any "third party oversight" pointless, yes?DLinth 17:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a new article that all of this conversation points to - probably best to continue further conversation at its talk page - thanks for your responses so far - I have no faith in the CIA factbook as a genuine or reliable source - and I personally consider atlases in the end as secondary sources - however we are best served by the Australia and the Southern ocean article talk page - probably best there. Cheers SatuSuro 23:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Panama

I noticed your changes for Panama in the transcontinental country article. There is no clear consensus on the boundary dividing the mainlands of North America and South America. If most Panamanians consider their whole country to be in North America, despite 45% living east of the Panama Canal, that is largely due to a desire to keep themselves from being associated with Colombia, the nation from which they gained independence. In terms of flora and fauna, Panama east of the Canal, being mostly dense tropical rainforest, is more like NW Colombia than Costa Rica and Panama west of the Canal. Meanwhile, I added superscript twos to the charts to state the condition under which the Panama numbers are approximately correct. Heff01 23:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, but there is clear consensus and has been for a long, long time. Nat'l Geo, Times Atlas (UK-world's #1 atlas), Websters Geog Dictionary, CIA World Factbook, and virtually all respected geographic sources say Panama is wholly in N. Amer. It's not a matter of flora/fauna (then the Sinai is in Africa; Caucasus Mtns., etc.), it's not a matter of geology. Continents are defined primarily by geographers. Those analyzing the vegetation, history, Panamanian opinion polls, politics, demographics, etc. can develop their own categorizations of their own regions, but "continents" are primarily physical geography (not geoology)constructs and lie in the purview of those authorities I listed above. To not include Panama wholly within N. America puts WP wholly out of step with most authorities.

[edit] 6 MORE ADDITIONS

Hi. I have 6 more additions to list of territorial disputes:- Eastern Anatolia:- this is apparantly a claim included in the Armenian constitution. I found list on the net, ref included. Kulsuzov Island:- Taiwan disputes this with Russia. It was a Chinese island awarded to Russia after the boundary agreement between the PRC and Russia. The ROC does not recognize the PRC, so they dispute this. Wiki ref. Khuriya Muriya:- this was added to on disputed islands on Wiki, and I have added this as a matter of course. Lake Constance. A well-known dispute. References all over the internet. Mbanza Bay:- as previously discussed with you. Syria/Lebanon disputes: sourced off the internet, these are apparantly not Shebaa Farms-related. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.68.39.212 (talk) 13:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi. My colleague next door says that

1) Lake Constance was settled quite some time ago, and there is a definite, agreed boundary in the lake. Many of the internet references are either dated, or they refer to disputes over tonnes of fish, gallons of water, etc.....not over sovereignty or territory....can't start listing those types of disputes or we'd have nearly every bdy.!

2) The Armenian constitution claim is a pervasive internet rumor. There is a "world constituions" internet site where one can read it; it says something about Greater Armenia in history but makes no specific claims now and in fact the Armenian govt. reaffirmed that as they were moving toward independence c. 1991.

As for Khuriya Muriya (more hits on Kuria Muria), we can't seem to find any evidence that it is disputed (by Yemen? who?)....Yemen and Oman settled all their territory squabbles in 1997 with a treaty. If you've uncovered anything on that, definitely write back here (or include a "throw-away" old email address here and I'll email directly, get an email address you'd prefer, and we can correspond that way if you like.)

I got zero hits on that Kulsuzov Island and have nothing on it here.....spelling? Arguably, now (2004) that China and Russia have settled all of their boundary disputes, including islands, any Taiwanese claim would in many ways be moot.

I was surprised that Lebanon-Syria was not in there already (the parts other than Shaba'a Farms) as that is one of the world's least well defined boundaries (no treaty) and modern Syrian tourist ministry and other official maps clearly show divergences from how most other maps show it.....though never by more than 3 km except by 8 km in one place near "Deir al Ashayr" (several spellings.) The French mapping of the 1930's and 1940's is the only authoritative source. I would definitely add that as well as the Malawi claimed islets along the Tanzania coast. Keep up the research!DLinth 15:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Longest rivers in states

Hiya DLinth -- yea I've come across a great many questionable claims of geographic superlatives (longest X in Y, 3rd deepest N in M of type P, Q, and R, etc). I often correct them or change to something like "one of the longest..." instead of "4th longest..." or whatever, jokingly saying "superlatives are the 3rd leading cause of misinformation on wikipedia!" I've slacked off a bit, but the Altamaha River page is on my watchlist, so I saw the edit. By chance I've also seen and tried to fix claims of how many rivers pass through the Cascades. The Columbia River page long said it was the only one. The Klamath and Pit river pages said there were 2 or 3, or even 4 counting the Fraser. Anyway, since I'd lately been looking into the Pit-Sacramento, it occurred to me as a possible contender in the "longest river completely within a state" competition. But I don't recall ever seeing an actual, reliable list of such rivers, so I asked about the source. It's not a big deal though, just curiosity.

And by the way, I have also seen the James River of Virginia cited as the longest completely within a state -- in quite a few places! At some point the wikipedia page on the river dropped the claim, but had a bullet point under "Trivia" that read: The James River is one of the longest waterways that is wholly contained in one state (Virginia) in the United States. The Trinity and Neches Rivers in Texas and the Innoko in Alaska are longer. Since this was misleading at best, I deleted it. My half-serious theory is that most of these kind of claims originate in Chambers of Commerce and other boosterism organizations. It seems that every town, city, county, etc, says they have the biggest something of some kind. My favorite very-wrong claim was on the Lake Winnipesaukee page, which was said to be the "largest lake completely contained within a state". After shown false it became "largest lake completely contained within a state in New England". But that failed too. The sources for the claims were, if I remember right, local Winnipesaukee Chambers of Commerce and the like.

Another minor campaign of mine is on river pages that say things like "this river is one of the very few north-flowing rivers in the world". The only time a page I created got deleted was when, in frustration, I made a page listing as many "north-flowing" rivers I could find, to link to when a page made a claim like that. It was a stupid idea on my part and deserved to be deleted. But in any case, it's a decent example of how ranking natural geographic features by length, size, etc, can be done badly, with questionable methods, then stated as fact. Not to mention issues of scale changing the measurements and so on. But sorry to babble on -- just background on my Campaign to Reduce Superlative Misinformation on Wikipedia! (and why good sources of such info are of interest) Always nice to chat with a fellow geographer here, cheers! Pfly 07:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Pfly, not only do I agree on all counts, but when I get time too, I have spent more effort than anywhere else on checking and correcting geographic superlative claims which, as you say, are so often way off base. The classic "north-flowing river" claim pops up everywhere and is not only completely fictitious (many of the world's longest rivers in addition to the Nile are north flowing such as the Lena, Ob, Irtysh, McKenzie, Yenisei, etc.) but defies common sense. Keep up the good work.DLinth (talk) 01:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Shebaa farms

Thanks for your edits on Shebaa. I have since made some additional ones to better state the facts that I had included and you had changed/removed. Please look at my recent edits and let me know. I tried to access your UN refs, but couldnt, kept getting an error message; i changed the things they recc'd w/o success. Looks like my connection is too slow or a security problem from my location. I dunno.

I spent several hours on Google Earth (GE) prior to making my previous re-write of the lede section. I also used this [1] as a source for the armistice and road mentions (note disclaimer on boundaries at bottom left(?)), as well as those included in the Shebaa article and other maps available within Wiki. I could generally map/GE-identify all UN-ref'd points, 'just over a kilometer northwest of Banias', being Wadi al Asal or the switch-back coming out of the wadi. The HarDov ref (circular link that I removed) was more difficult, I assume it is the military post at about el 1485(if I remember the el right). The one I am still having trouble with is the 'traditional Lebanon-Syrian border 3.4 km east of Al Ghajar'. I could not locate anything that was map/GE identifiable and at 'the foot of the hills'. Can you check that one?

As one prof Geo-whatever to another, I appreciate your involvement and particularly like your reply-post of 07Dec06, above. Have you had any other problems along those lines which are accompanied by 'and therefore constitutes WP:OR? I can see that as a potential problem with people who read words and skip the maps. Also, how familiar are you with riparian/water rights relative to border issues? thanks, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 03:33, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

D, Thanks so much, tho I am still looking at it. As, I suspected, the area (Leb vs Syr) was a water issue issue and thalweg is the word that says it, pretty much tho not absolutely. The next issue, usage, where it falls vs where it flows, is one that the locals must decide. Lack of settlement means it is used downstream as it has since. Development in the area added to troubles RE '67 war. With the topo as it is 'farms' always seemed unusual. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 00:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

D, concerning St. Lucia, I had to get lucky once, it was Jan-May and the HQ people were jealous; to even things out, I spent the next two winters in Alaska. My thermal coefficient seemed to average out over several years.

Thanks for your information, its a big help, and made more minor edits; take a look. First, I believe we have the same location for the Har Dov facility and everything is pretty close to being correct as far as the information we have is concerned. The turning point south of El Majidiye is easily recognizable on the maps, but less clear on Google earth, because it contains several turns. My big question remains on the southwestern border, at the foot of the mountains and basically the elevation which the border generally follows. That comes down to a question of where ‘the 1946 Moughr Shab’a-Shab’a boundary’ is ‘until reaching the thalweg of the Wadi al-Aasal’, and I know some map somewhere has that. It is not a biggie.

Using my resources development background, it looks like the French actually had a plan. Splitting the border where they did allowed Syria to keep the land for an easy overland route south of the mountains. The armistice line indicates to me that they fought over it, and the water. My question on the southwestern limits of the Shebaa Farms has to do with how much thinking they did concerning future water resource development plans. Since water is scarce, these plans go back a considerable amount of time, based on what I know. From an engineering standpoint, the lower the elevation the cheaper the project would be, but then there’s also the elevation of the land you have to deliver it to. I did notice a couple things, the first is the occurrence of the fault, which is quite apparent. Faults tend to complicate water flow especially since there are springs nearby at Banays, the next valley to the east, and at Tel Dan located in the flats, and just north of the armistice line, on GE with lots of pictures taken. I was surprised by the lack of development on Wadi al-Aasal, based on the size of the valley; I will bet that it has high flow surface drainage only. The 1966 map was a big help to identify some of the remnants I had seen on GE, especially the pipeline route, which you can follow easily; also the old trench lines(?) on both sides of the border between Ghagar and the mentioned TP to the east. The TP near the switchback (on GE) also has border-like(?) ‘remnant’ going up the slope to the ridge line.

Taking a look on GE also brought up one question. If you take a look at the map locations of villages, almost none exist as they did in 1966, Moughr Shab’a is a prime example. My question; if you take a look at old village locations, is the use of the word ‘unpopulated‘ correct or is there some indication in your eyes that the word ‘depopulated’ might be better. I don’t really want to get into that but I would appreciate if you could take a look and give me your SWAG.

I would also like to move the link coordinates of the area to an less precise, even-minute location, 33°17’N, 35°42’E, at about the middle of the area. The current one is too exact, too far NE and out of the area. I could not figure out how. One last Shebaa thought, is there any way you can crop your map, add ‘indicated boundaries are approx’ and replace the current Shebaafarms.png. That is too much hightech wiz-bang for me‎.

I also added paras 16 and 71 to Ghajar, since I was in the neighborhood. I am not ready/willing to add any other of the doozies in the report, just yet. I like articles like Shebaa to cool down. I might just pass it on to the 2006 Lebanon war talk page. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 13:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Good edits to both Shebaa and Ghagar, while you were in the neighborhood. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 14:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Sheba Farms 1966map.jpg

Image Copyright problem

Hi DLinth!
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[edit] RE: Image, et al

I took a quick look at the credits for the prev image in the article. On the surface, and I dont know too much in that area, it looks like both maps come from the same Leb army map series (1966). It seems that what is OK for one should be as good for the other that you worked on. I didn't see that you had commented back.

I saw this, added my professional two cents. Got any loose change? Also, I did a major rewrite here[2], that has stood up quite well[3]. Would appreciate your professional eyeball. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 03:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes. same Leb army map series (1966). Nice, accurate work on Golan Hts...., and most importantly, on the no original research page, thanks for contributing common sense and clarity of thought...well done on that old bugaboo!DLinth (talk) 18:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)