Talk:Diyarbakır/Archive 1

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Contents 1 Comment 2 Syriac=Aramaic 3 Dikranagertz 4 Mayor 5 "Capital" of Kurdistan 6 Kurdish Name 7 Administrative Units of Contemporary Kurdistan 8 kurdish propaganda

Comment

Should the main article be moved to Diyarbakır? Gerry Lynch 23:11, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I believe so. Olessi 21:45, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Syriac=Aramaic

Since Syriac is a form of Aramaic, shouldn't the Syriac and Aramaic names of the city be merged? The pronunciation differs according to the Syriac dialect: Omed (West Syriac) or Amed (East Syriac).

Dikranagertz

Isn't Diyarbakir sometimes called Dikranagertz by Armenians who once lived there? (If people can reply to this without arguing about the Genocide, that would be great. I would love to know more about the history behind the names. Thanks!)

I believe the Armenian name is Dikranagert. I shall try to write that in Armenian to add to the article. --Gareth Hughes 22:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Utterly cool. Thank you! 38.2.108.125 21:18, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Mayor

Some people seem to be amused by continuously deleting information on Diyarbakir's mayor, Osman Baydemir. He is a rather notable and well know person, from before he became mayor asa human rights defender and deputy-chairman of the Turkish Human Rights Association. Any arguments for these facts not being relevant in this article??? Bertilvidet 08:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Details of his CV belongs to an article under his name (Osman Baydemir, to be started). Here it is sufficient to state that he is the mayor.

Also, I am going to erase again the terrible phrase, "Among people who recognize Kurds, the city is often considered as the unofficial capital of Turkish Kurdistan." I am convinced that there are people who recognize Kurds (such as my humble self) but not the capital stuff. The phrase winks at a POV minded public. It is the seat/capital of Diyarbakır Province. That's all.

Also again, it is Diyarbakır Province which has the total population of 1,3 million people indicated here under the article for Diyarbakır city, which itself actually counts (at least officially, as indicated at the Governorship's web site [1]), 546000 souls and 721000 for the whole municipal area (2000 figures). I am prepared to believe it should be slightly more (but certainly not 1,3 million), and I also checked the site to see if there were at least some estimates in the Diyarbakır Greater Municipality web site [2], but His Mayoralty forgot to include basic information on his city, although some superfluous stuff is there. There is no link under "general information", which, I am tempted to venture, shows the degree of seriousness (I was referring to this article).

I will put the official population count for the city, remove that absurd phrase, and stick to basics for the mayor. --Cretanforever 09:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I really cannot understand what damage it does to shortly present the mayor. The same is done for at least one other mayor that is notable in Turkish politics, namely Mustafa Sarıgül, mayor of Sisli. Bertilvidet 17:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I started an article on Mustafa Sarıgül and work on it to develop. I suggest you do the same for Osman Baydemir. --Cretanforever 01:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

"Capital" of Kurdistan

Clearly, Turkish Kurdistan doesn't have any sort of official capital. However, I think it is notable that many Turkish Kurds claim it as their capital. A Kurdish press agency says "In the capital of greater Kurdistan, Amed (Diyarbakir)..."[3]; Ocalan has said that it would "become the capital of Kurdistan after the region gained independence"[4]. Outside observers call it the "capital" or the "unofficial capital" of (Turkish) Kurdistan: Monde Diplomatique[5]; an article on "Turkey's Strategic Model: Myths and Realities" by Graham Fuller in Washington Quarterly 27:3:51 (Summer 2004)by subscription; a book called After Such Knowledge, What Forgiveness?: My Encounters with Kurdistan, Jonathan C Randal ISBN 0813335809i.

Wikipedia should report this usage; this of course does not mean that Wikipedia endorses it. Here is some suggested language:

Many Kurds consider Diyarbakir to be the capital of Turkish Kurdistan, and outside observers sometimes refer to it as the unofficial capital of Turkish Kurdistan.

Thoughts? Remember, we are trying for NPOV.... --Macrakis 16:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed formulations. Actually I noticed last week that the British Foreign Office in its travel advice referred to Diyarbakir as the capital of southeastern Turkey. This reference was however - not surprisingly - removed the following day. But it underlines how widespread the city is conceived as the most important city - unofficial capital - for the Kurds in Turkey. It should be mentioned - but of course not endorsed. Bertilvidet 17:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

For the moment, I inserted the true population figures and separated the discutable stuff under a second paragraph. I will provide a good number of sources for the assertions made in that paragraph. Let's keep it as it is for the moment. --Cretanforever 00:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

"Many Kurds" Who are these "many"? Please avoid "weasel words" and cite sources.--Hattusili 20:21, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Hattusili, I provided two references above for Kurds (one a Kurdish organization, the other quoting Ocalan), and two references for outsiders. I agree that "many" is hard to establish; the quotes would directly support something like "some Kurdish activists". On the other hand, outside observers seem to be pretty consistent in calling Diyarbakir the capital of Kurdistan. A French guidebook to Turkey I have from the 70's calls Diyarbakir "the capital of the tribes" -- remember, it was illegal to talk about Kurds then. Would you prefer simply "Diyarbakir is often called the capital of Turkish Kurdistan" with all four references supporting this? --Macrakis 21:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

There is NO state as "kurdistan" and "Diyarbakır" is NOT capital of anywhere!!!!!

The article currently states:

Diyarbakir has a large Kurdish population, and both some Kurds and outside observers often refer to it as the unofficial 'capital' of a Turkish Kurdistan [6]

[7].

It says that some Kurds and outside observes often refer to it as an unofficial capital. This statement is true. What the statement does not say is that it is the capital. It does not help having statements like the one before my post, which is pure rant. — Gareth Hughes 22:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

So Berlin is capital of German-Turkey.Add this sentence as well...

That makes no sense whatsoever. Please sign your posts. — Gareth Hughes 22:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Sure, the main issue is seperation of Turkey.

You still need to sign. You are talking politics, and not the facts of the statement you have tried to delete. That statement says nothing about anyone splitting Turkey. It simply says that Kurds and outsiders often refer to Diyarbakır as the unofficial capital of Turkish Kurdistan. Now, anyone who's been to Diyarbakır will know that this statement is true: Kurdish political and cultural activity in Trkey is centred on Diyarbakır. — Gareth Hughes 23:02, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

She can't sign, nor is she allowed to edit. She's banned. Khoikhoi 23:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Kurdish Name

The kurdish name cited in the article is Amed, but Díyarbekir is also the kurdish name of the city. The name was changed by the kurdish dinasty the Bagirawand(Bagiratids) who renamed their capital after them selves Diyarbakir (Diyari Bagir wich natually became Bakir, Land of the Bakir i.e. the Bagirawands). The name is thus not from the Arab Bakir tribe. (Source: Mehrdad R. Izady - The Kurds, A Consice Handbook)

I haven't come across the name Bagirawand in a search engine. I assume the Kurdish dynasty Bagiratids to be the same or at least akin to Bagratids whom I knew to have a Georgian branch and an Armenian branch. I did not know that there was also a Kurdish branch, or that the family was actually Kurdish. Therefore I am adding a link in your phrase to the article on that dynasty and I am sure a discussion there between you around the true Bagratid identity will be highly enlightening. Also, when did the name change take place? You did not indicate a date or a period. Regards. --Cretanforever 23:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the exact time, but I would suggest it was during the middle ages.

Administrative Units of Contemporary Kurdistan

A map reference with the above caption was added by User:Retau (although he used this Google URL:[8]). The map includes the credit "© M. R. Izady. For class use only." It would seem to be the same person as this citation:

The Kurds: A Concise Handbook, By Mehrdad Izady, Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, Harvard University, Taylor and Francis International Publishers/ Washington – Philadelphia - London

that was added [9] + [10] by User:66.79.163.189.

--Moby 11:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

An interview with Professor Garnik Asatrian — Garnik Asatrian (Head of the Faculty of Iranian Studies at Yerevan State University)

GA: Mehrdad Izady is a stupid man, a very stupid man. He is a Professor at the University of Harvard, and I wonder why Harvard has Professors such as he. For example, he could not even be a mere teacher here in Armenia, even teaching children. It's amazing, it's amazing, it's very amazing.

--Cretanforever 15:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

God bless Turks. These (GA) are very fascists. Wow, very offensive!! Their hatred towards Muslims even if nominally is incredible. 66.79.163.189 16:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

kurdish propaganda

this article is turning out to be an article of kurdish propaganda and advertising of kurdish separatist movements. Possibly in the future these propaganda editors start adding statements about Turkish hostility. The motto of Turkey is "peace at home and peace in the world". Kurds of Turkey know and support this quite well. Most of the Kurds living Turkey are against these kind of separatist movements. We'll continue living in peace with our Kurdish friends together.

Yeah right, that's why there's so many Kurdish refugees in Europe running away from the Turkish army and police. We live in peace and we'll continue living in peace while our women and men get tortured or executed because they are Kurdish or spoke Kurdish or even Turks who defended this will get punished harshly like İsmail Beşikçi. We'll live in peace, in Istanbul, while at Diyarbakir people are dying of hunger. We'll live in peace but hide the fact in your identity card you have to be Islamic and Turkish, choiceless. We'll live in peace if the Kurds shut up and be Turkified or else Semdinli. We'll live in peace if Kurdish is not spoken, studied and lived. We'll live in peace as long as Kurdish is terrorism. Do we live in peace or do we pretend to be in peace? Ozgur Gerilla 12:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

As stated at the beginning of this "kurdish propaganda section", Turkish hostility behind some separatists causes this debate. There is no need to dramatise the situation by creating a POV fork, cause in turkey most of the population is living under difficult conditions not only the kurds. the capitalist powers of the world is creating causalities. By promoting turkish-kurdish hostility, only the capitalists will get profit.

Yes, and who's those evil capitalists? Eupore and USA? The capitalists for Kurds is the Turkish government who restricted Kurdish & put the entire Kurdistan into poverty. Propaganda is what you get when you open Kanal D or Show TV or TRT int,1,2,3. I am providing facts. Ozgur Gerilla 13:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The media is never become objective, not only in turkey, everywhere. Everbody is trying to make their own propaganda. However, if we assume good will and try to be comprehensive, i think we can overcome all difficulties. If people in Turkey try to discuss the issues as we do here, the solution will be easier. There is no problem related with the constitution of thr Republic of Turkey, whose motto is "peace at home, peace in the world", the problem is related with the people governing turkey and with their relations. They put the entire turkey into poverty. Turks, Kurds and all other communities together constituted the Republic. We should defend our rights all together, preventing all hostilities.