Talk:Dissolution of the Monasteries

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	Anglicanism Portal Dissolution of the Monasteries is part of WikiProject Anglicanism, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit · refresh) I have graded the importance of these articles as follows: High Importance Catholicism Project and High importance Anglicanism project. Reasoning: Henry VIII dissolved the monasteries – obstensibly to rid the Kingdom of corrupt priests and monks – but mainly because he wanted the money for himself. Regardless, the dissolution saw the effective end of Papal authority in England. Henry was already Head of the Church of England, but the dissolution acted as a visual national confirmation that Papal authority over Royal Supremacy would no longer be tolerated. The same visual national confirmation saw the rise of Anglicanism in England. Although a complete church settlement did not appear until the next generation, the dissolution of the monasteries scared clergymen into conversions. The leanings of Henry's chief minister, Thomas Cromwell, gave strength to the rise of Anglicanism; the dissolution had been organised by he himself.
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Unprotected theresa knott 08:16, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Does this entry really pass muster as neutral? or historical? --Wetman 07:59, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I cleaned up some of the pro-Rome POV in the article, in particular the argumentative style which looks more like an academiv POV thesis. I have noticed that many articles on the reformation are basically arguing 'the English yearned to rejoin Rome'. There is no balancing POV stating that Henry VIII got away with it because the church was a stinking cesspool of corruption loathed at practically every level of society by a large fraction of the population. The Borgias had only just been ejected, the indulgences racket was an abomination, the church was synonymous with greed.--Gorgonzilla 01:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

That POV would be problematic not for a pro-Protestant stance but for historical inaccuracy. The only Borgia pope died many decades before the English reformation and was a distant and irrelevant memory. Indulgences were a problem in Germany but not an issue in England. There were certainly greedy priests and prelates, but there were also greedy sheriffs and chancellors, and the church did not suddenly become less grasping for being Protestant instead of Catholic.

Contents 1 anticlericalism 2 Book of Kells 3 Sections 4 Earlier Dissolution? 5 The suppression acts 6 Ireland

[edit] anticlericalism

"It is unlikely that the monastic system could have been broken if there had not been a strong feeling of resentment against the church amongst at least part of the general population."

This is a speculative statement without any evidence advanced in its favor. It should not stand unless some evidence is presented to demonstrate the said resentment.

Well there was anticlerical feeling among parts of the population at that time:

One ought not to generalise about whole nations, but if one thing can be said of the English people early in the sixteenth century it is that they thought little of priests...There was thus much of that feeling which is generally summarised in the word anticlericalism. - Geoffrey Elton, England under the Tudors, p. 102.--Johnbull 18:50, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand what is meant by 'evidence'. Justifying one general characterization by another person's general characterization isn't evidence; sometimes even historians talk out of wishful thinking. :) General characterizations have to be founded on particulars. Appropriate evidence would be particulars of English anti-monastic sentiment preceding Henry VIII's and Thos. Cromwell's drive to shut the monasteries. This could include excerpts from contemporary pamphlets, contemporary accounts of anti-monastic protests or rioting, individual legal complaints and so on; but not government actions.

Richard Hunne is one recorded example of the suspiciousness of the religious authorities. That's not counting the remants of Lollardy and John Wycliffe's doctrines. And of course there was anticlerical sentiment in the Commons which presented the King with the Supplication of the Ordinaries, a list of popular grievances against the Church. Robert Revell led a faction in Shirland, Derbyshire that expelled up to '17 or 18' priests from the town. They had scant respect for the Church; one had a pudding stuffed into his mouth as he was about to begin Mass: Ethan Shagan, Popular Politics and the English Reformation, p. 136. There are numerous accounts of laymen and women stealing the chalice which in medieval times they were forbidden to even touch let along drink Christ's blood out of, and also of driving priests out-of-town and having little respect for them generally (Ibid, pp. 136-38).--Johnbull 15:39, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

This statement is woeful. Why is this allowed to stand?

I agree, and believe the statement, that "the monastic system could [not] have been broken if there had not been a strong feeling of [general] resentment," constitutes a misrepresentation of fact. See generally, Colin Platt, The Architecture of Medieval Britain (1990, Yale University Press) at 269-295 (demonstrating the comfortable position monastaries, and clerics in general, held in England on the eve of Reformation). The monasteries did not go peaceably, but were often brutally suppressed, both for not signing the Act of Succession and refusing to submit their property and institutions to the Crown. This result stands in stark contrast to what occurred on the Continent and in Scotland. Certainly, the rebellions that occurred following the 'reforms' of Henry VIII were as much about preserving monastic practice as saints' shrines and the other forms of traditional Christian expression before the Reformation. That there were rebellions at all is instructive on the status of popular sentiment at the time, and have little parallel elsewhere in Europe.

There is also a danger in telescoping popular resentment against clerical abuses into a full scale movement for 'Reform.' Even Thomas More was active against such abuses and in helping the State to curb them. The true issue, therefore, is whether the English people merely desired a reform, or a complete break from Rome along the lines promulgated by Martin Luther, John Calvin, or John Knox.

To that extent, I find it useful to see how the Reformation expressed itself on the continent as compared to England. On the Continent, by in large, the Reformation occurred from the bottom up. The state, in other words, largely ratified what people were already expressing. England, by contrast, while certainly not immune to some strains of Protestant sentiment, became Protestant by State action. It comprised, accordingly, a process imposed from the top down, resulting in bloody reprisals as significant segments of the population attempted to preserve their traditional, long held practices.

Certainly, I believe it only fair to say that England ceased to be Catholic after the debacle of Mary Tudor’s reign, and upon the conclusion of Elizabeth I’s carefully calculated policies—especially when combined with the forces of nascent nationhood and patriotism. But the very length of time it took for England to express herself as Protestant, speaks volumes about where England stood at the time Henry VIII commenced his own break from Rome, as does the large number of adherents to the “Old Faith” that continued to plague the State until the Restoration under Charles II.Mikhelos 04:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikhelos (talk • contribs) 15:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Book of Kells

I have removed the following sentence; "The world-famous Book of Kells was only preserved by being smuggled out of the monastery at great risk by the last Abbot." The Abbey of Kells was converted to a parish church in the 12th Century. The last Abbot had been dead for about 400 years by the time of Thomas Cromwell. The Book left Kells during the rule of Oliver Cromwell, a century later. Dsmdgold 22:24, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

Ding dang! Good sleuthing! I was fooled by this, though I got the "fish-wrapping" bit out, as it smelled:

"Other losses to posterity included the many valuable books held in the monastic libraries, virtually all of which were destroyed and their pages used for tasks such as stopping wine casks, polishing candlesticks, or wrapping fish. It is believed that many of the earliest Anglo-Saxon manuscripts were lost at this time. The world-famous Book of Kells was only preserved by being smuggled out of the monastery at great risk by the last Abbot. Monastic schools and hospitals were also lost, with serious consequences locally."

Oi! Well, this text was added, 10 February 2004, by an anonymous editor, User:62.64.212.184, who made numerous edits, 9 and 10 Feb. 2004, but has not been seen since, or before. Hmm, bears looking over... --Wetman 00:25, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sections

Added the section header "Context and description" so that the Table of Contents wasn't pushed to the bottom. I know that's not the greatest title, but I couldn't think of anything else, nor could I find a way to split them into two separate sections, e.g. "Context" and "Description." =\ --Jen Moakler 18:23, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Earlier Dissolution?

Currently reading a book by Jane Greatorex (Greatorex, Jane [1999]. Coggeshall Abbey and Abbey Mill [Manors, Mills & Manuscripts]. Jane Greatorex, Castle Hedingham, Essex. ISBN 0951854348). On page 11 she talks about how in 1295 all monastic houses within 13 miles of the coast and sending money back to their mother houses in France were re-sited to within not 20 miles of the coast. And how in 1391 Richard II dissolved all 'alien' religious houses in the country, "the first dissolution of houses in this country". Is this a well known fact and could it be regarded as an earlier dissolution? Is it worth mentioning on this page or else where? Thanks Pluke 16:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

There were several prior dissolutions of monastic houses. What you are refering to is the dissolution of the Alien Priories. These were small monasteries, sometimes merely estates, that belonged to French abbeys as a result of donations after the Norman conquest. As a consequence of the 100 Years War they were siezed by the government during the 14th century as enemy property and put under administration to prevent the income going abroad to France. During the early 15th some became naturalised (for example Lewes, Castle Acre) and continued to exist while others were taken by the crown and either given to other foundations (Eton College and Syon abbey for example were major beneficiaries) otr to roayal cronies. The the fate of the Alien Priories should definitely be mentioned as it's an important legal precedent for Henry's actions, as indeed should the early 16th century dissolutions for educational purposes. Contemporary dissolutions in Germany, Switzerland and Scandinavia should also be mentioned. I must say that I think that this article needs a thorough rewrite. Soph 13:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The suppression acts

I see there is a redlink at "the First Suppression Act (1536) and the Second Suppression Act (1539)." I feel this current article is incomplete without paragraphs discussing the contents of these two acts, and that separate articles might not really serve the Wikipedia reader at this stage. --Wetman 18:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC).

I agree, they should redirect here for now. Be bold. -- SECisek 18:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ireland

I have tagged this article with {{globalize/UK}}, because it seems to say very little about the dissolution in Ireland, although there is quite a lot on the dissolution in England. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)