Talk:Discrimination against Hellenic neopaganism

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 6 August 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents

[edit] "under God" stuff

The second article begins by saying that USAns enjoy freedom of religion. I wonder how the Bush administration interprets this, with all their "under God" stuff. — JIP | Talk 11:45, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

The "under God" stuff wasn't made up by the Bush administration, it's been in the Pledge of Allegiance since the 1950s and on USA currency for I think as long as we've printed money. Nevertheless, the US government doesn't establish a state church. Wesley 17:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I think he/she/it is refering to the quote "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." from Bush the older altough W Bush seems to have simmilar ideas. // Liftarn

[edit] Additions made.

I felt that the segment on ancient greece was rather lacking, and held some slightly misleading information. I've added a lot regarding the motives behind some of the persecution, and I added in some history on the paragraph about sacrifices. I elaborated to show that in Thrace human blood sacrifices were not uncommon. I corrected a few grammatical errors as well. I hope everything I've included is satisfactory, I felt it was important to add some context to certain things. --Lucavix 10:03, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccuracies in section on modern religion

Much of the information in the final paragraph is wildly inaccurate, and I think it would be a good idea to either delete it or rewrite. I want to hear what other people think about this. The major problem is that none of the claims the paragraph makes about "persecution" of the ancient Greek religion in the US are substantiated:

  • "There is a swelling number of Hellenistic Pagans in the United States, and they are currently fighting for equal recognition as a legitimate faith and equal tax exempt status." First of all, it's Hellenic, not Hellenistic, which refers to the historical period. Second, I know of no cases where Hellenic polytheists have been denied equal recognition or tax-exempt status, and none are cited. However, I do know of at least one group (Hellenion) that has received tax-exempt status with no problem.
  • "Because the United States government will not grant them equal Tax Exempt Status, many Hellenistic pagans in America feel persecuted[citation needed]." Again, no evidence has been provided for this claim.
  • "Instead of gathering in temples, today many organize what they call circle gatherings, which normally take place in personal residences." US Hellenic polytheists don't meet in temples for one simple reason - there aren't any, and we can't afford to build them. It has nothing to do with persecution.
  • "Even in the United States there is an element of religious persecution against Pagans, particularly by fundamentalist christian groups seen as out of the mainstream. The Westboro Baptist Church for example advocates murder against all Pagans, and the murder of anyone who they perceive as "sorcerers" or practitioners of magic. (See Christian views on witchcraft)" I seriously doubt that ANY of the people of the WBC even know that Hellenic polytheism exists. They are barely even aware of paganism - they are much too busy protesting GLBT events. I really don't think it's legitimate to claim that the ancient Greek religion is being persecuted in this case unless there is some evidence (like a news report or something). Fred Phelps having a webpage about how God hates all pagans does not constitute persecution of Hellenic polytheism.

Is there any evidence that this religion is actually facing persecution in the US? If not, should we just dump the paragraph? - AdelaMae 00:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


I also found it dubious, I put the citation needed tags in awhile ago, and haven't heard a response. Since it seems like you are as close to an expert on the subject as we are likely to get, I would go with your instincts and cut. --Goodoldpolonius2 02:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ottoman Empire

Just wondering how the ancient greek religion was treated during the occupation by the Ottoman Empire. Were there any practicing polytheists during that 400 years or so? Wesley 17:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Possibly; Plethon the Philosopher lived at the turn of the century that the Ottomans conquered Constantinople (1400's), and references do exist that claim certain Byzantine philosophical schools did exist that called god "Zeus" or "Poseidon." Whether this traditions continued under the Ottomans is almost impossibleto give a conclusive answer for.

[edit] Greece unbanned worship of Olympians

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1767802,00.html

I'm surprised this bit of news hasn't made it into the article yet. I've just joined Wikipedia and I don't know much of the markup language or editing procedure, so I don't feel comfortable editing it myself just yet. Estrella 02:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll give it a go. It appears to be far from a full recognition according to http://www.geocities.com/greekgodslegal/update0406.htm // Liftarn

[edit] article name

Shouldn't article this be titled "Persecution of ancient Greek religious"? That would mesh with the style of the other articles on Template:Religious persecution. To the point, one cannot persecute religion, only religious people. — coelacan talk — 05:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

I would like some additional citations and references to be added in the article's body, especially in the historical information.

(Nik markoulakis 17:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC))

Please use the tag {{fact}} where appropiate. // Liftarn

[edit] Non-Christian

I am suprised that no non-Christian sources of persecution for the Greek Religion are included in the article. Surely the Persian, Slavic pagan, Parthian and Ottoman persecutions should also be mentioned? (RookZERO 19:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Merge

  • Support
  • Oppose
  1. The article is a bit short, but it looks like it can stand on it's own. As for the merge it would probably make more sense to merge Decline of Hellenistic polytheism to this article than the other way around. // Liftarn
  • Comments
  1. If it was to be merged then the article name Decline of Hellenistic polytheism needs to be changed first. // Liftarn

[edit] Deletion

I see that some information semi-redundant with the Decline article has been deleted, but that no information not about the modern era remains. I am suprised that historical persecutions of Greek religion like those of the Persians, Parthians, Slavic pagans, and Ottoman Turks have been at all mentioned.(RookZERO 23:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC))