Talk:Direct-Shift Gearbox

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Uh, American reviews usually don't like CVT, but DSG is getting rave reviews here...

I will dig out (links to) the two articles that gave me that impression.

Both from BorgWarners investorrs web site, scanned in articles from "Auto News" (publication):- http://www.borgwarner.com/in_the_news/ane061305.pdf and http://www.borgwarner.com/in_the_news/an062705.pdf

  • Agreed. This is an odd comment and in my opinion not relevant to this article. Perhaps the author was referring to the fact that more vehicles contain CVT's? Porcupine911 02:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Who are the two new European OEMs?

I have scanned the internet and can find numerous references to BorgWarners recent press release but no one has named the two new car manufactureres that will be able to use the DualTronic (DSG) gearbox in their 2007 models.

Mark 23:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

My understanding is that Mercedes-Benz and BMW will use DSG gearboxes under license from Borg-Warner. Meanwhile, Ford Motor Company announced their intention to build their own version of a DSG gearbox.

[edit] Isn't it VAG?

...to Volkswagen (which also owns the Audi, SEAT, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini and Škoda brands)

I think technically, all those brands are held under the VAG company (Volkswagen Audi Group) so this sentence is not exactly accurate... --67.189.98.43 02:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

VAG does not stand for Volkswagen Audi Group, but rather Volkswagenwerk Aktiengesellschaft, or "Volkswagen Corporation." TomTheHand 12:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Wrong . . . "Volkswagenwerk Aktiengesellschaft" does NOT exist, and has not done so since 1985! -- Teutonic Tamer 10:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

It is known as Volkswagen AG, AG (as explained) is a type of German company.

In the UK, "VAG" initially stood for "Volkswagen Audi Group" - when just VW and Audi were under the same ownership, and both marques were sold from the same car showrooms.
However, the current Volkswagen Group contains many more brands, but "VAG" is still used informally to indicate "Volkswagen Group" brands/marques.
Only in Germany, does VAG now technically refer to "Volkswagen AG" - however, informally, VAG still refers to the entire stable of VW Group brands. -- Teutonic Tamer 10:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Veyron Gearbox?

My understanding is that the Dual Clutch transmission for the Veyron was the work of Ricardo PLC, the UK transmission specialist responsible for the Ford GT's transmission.

That would be backed up by the fact that they won an award for it (see http://www.ricardo.com/media/pressreleases/pressrelease.aspx?page=38 ).

The gearbox developed by Borg-Warner is certainly a nice piece of kit, but it's a different piece of equipment than the Veyron box - which has to deal with over 900lb.ft of torque in the Veyron.

While I am on the subject of amendments - the article reads like Borg Warner invented this class of transmission (dual-clutch, pre-engaging). I know that porsche used this design in the early 1970's on their Le Mans car of the time, and I expect the history goes back further than that. One could argue that Borg Warner "invented" DSG, but its akin to saying Ford "invented" the Mustang. They certainly make the car in question, but the point is, it's not an invention, it's a product...

Craigy 217.155.94.30 19:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Per your last point, what if we were to say, "...dual-clutch gearbox designed by BorgWarner" ? That would confer that this iteration of a dual-clutch transmission is their work, but doesn't imply that they invented the concept (much like Ford designed the Mustang). Peel 19:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] January 5

I added more to the page including operation, advantages, and disadvantages aswell as cleaned it up. KG

[edit] 8 or 80 milliseconds, which is it

The page says 80 millisecond shift times, but the reference page (on about.com) says 8ms... which is it anyone? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.152.114.136 (talk) 00:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC).


I believe the 2008 M3 will have DSG as an option

[edit] 80 I believe

The figures I see in most sources are 8/100 of a second, which is 80 ms. If it was really 8 ms, it would be shifting in less time than it takes an M60 20mm Gatling gun (6000 rounds per minute) to fire a single bullet, which is pretty unbelievable.

[edit] clutch needed for first and R ?

also if downshift is anticipated, how is the (currently unused) input shaft 'sped up'? CorvetteZ51 13:42, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing the coasting advantage

I took out the advantage that said

  • Both clutches can disengage when travelling downhill, allowing the car to coast

Because I thought that

  1. It is dangerous to coast down a hill, in case you need engine fcontrol
  2. It saves fuel to just ride the hill with the wheels keeping the engine spinning as opposed to pumping more fuel to get it to stay at idle when disengaged with the wheels.
  3. Manuals and autos can do it too. (Neutral anyone?)

OMGsplosion 23:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added another disadvantage pertaining to engine modding

Because of car/engine modding/tuning popularity today, thought it would be a worthy edition for those interested. It is even pointed out and referenced in the Audi TT review in the external links. Here's how I quoted it.

"From car/engine modding perspective, the ability of the transmission handle extra power (ex upgraded turbocharger) is very questionable"

This statement is almost guarenteed to be untrue. Companies such as HPA are now using DSG transmissions in their high performance VW projects, pushing >600hp through a nearly unmodified transmission. For example, here is a current project car, the Jetta R-GT at 550hp with a DSG transmission. http://www.hpamotorsports.com/projects_finished_rgt-jetta.htm 142.161.255.36 (talk) 21:12, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Not sure if it is worded well enough. But anyone with better way of quoting it....suggestions are welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.36.254 (talk) 06:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Merge with Twin-Shift Gearbox

Against - DSG is notable on its own, and the amount of information on it is non-trivial. There's simply no point in merging it with another article, regardless of how related its subject is. 24.87.161.50 (talk) 03:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - DSG is a unique piece of engineering. Do NOT merge! -- Teutonic Tamer 10:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] new s-tronic info from Audi press release-- Q5 will be first vehicle

The following info should be added to the DSG wiki entry:

Originally developed to work with transversely mounted units, and so initially restricted to the TT and the A3, the latest generation of S tronic can now extend its reach upwards to the A4, A5, Q5 and many other Audi models whose engines are mounted ‘lengthways’.

In its latest form the famously quick and slick gearbox, developed exclusively by Audi, offers the existing transmission’s familiar Drive, Sport and ‘Manual’ modes, the latter upgrading from six to seven fixed ratios, and boasts a higher torque threshold of 550Nm. This impressive capacity means that it is theoretically compatible with a wide spectrum of sports models, including the majority of the V8 and V10-powered performance flagships and the high performance TDI models.

The formidable outputs produced by these cars will be handled by two multi-plate clutches – one controlling the odd gears 1, 3, 5 and 7 and the other the even 2, 4, 6 and reverse. Both transmission elements are continuously active, but only one is powered by the engine at any one time. This means that when the driver accelerates in third gear, for example, fourth is already pre-engaged by the second transmission element. The switching process takes place in mere hundredths of a second as the clutch shifts – while one is opening, the other closes, so changes are remarkably swift and the power flow is never interrupted.

The new seven-speed S tronic has also been designed to work in conjunction with the latest generation quattro four-wheel-drive system with asymmetric-dynamic distribution, so in normal conditions 40 per cent of the power is channelled from the drive shaft to the front axle differential and 60 per cent to the rear, resulting in optimum handling poise.

Twenty three years ago Audi fielded its first dual-clutch transmission in the 476PS Sport quattro S1 rally car piloted by Walter Rohrl and Christian Geistdorfer, and since its transfer to the road in 2003 as the Direct Shift Gearbox or DSG over 188,000 examples have been installed worldwide. The latest version, with its dramatically greater scope for application across the Audi range, will make its debut in UK-bound Audi models in late 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockreid (talk • contribs) 19:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

That lot looks just like an official Audi press release - so why didn't the OP post the link? -- Teutonic Tamer 10:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)