Talk:Diploma mill

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[edit] Switzerland

It might be worth to say something about the "free universities" (in German. "freie Universität") of Switzerland. Everybody is allowed to launch a free university in Switzerland - it just costs him 50.000 CHF (41.200 USD). Most popular are the "freie universität teufen" and the "freie universität zug". You can get every diploma you wan to have, included Dr. and Prof.

[edit] Edward Jenner

Edward Jenner may be the best-known customer of a diploma mill (W. Hadwin, Gloucester address, 1896; E. D. Hume, Béchamp or Pasteur, 1923). Obviously they're nothing new. 142.177.169.163 19:21, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Family Plots

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that Rick from Family Plots is also another customer of a diploma mill. That one episode where the two people wanted to get married in the chapel of the funeral home he whipped out some sort of theology degree. If I remember right, he apparently bought the degree to make himself an ordained minister.
JesseG 20:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename article

This came up during the AfD for List of unaccredited institutions of higher learning, but perhaps this article could be moved to Unaccredited institutions of higher learning and replaced with a redirect there since diploma mill is quite POV. Peyna 05:49, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Poor terminology

It is confusing and misleading to conflate the two terms "diploma mill" and "degree mill". "Diploma mill" has long been vernacular for an entity that prints and issues fraudulent degrees or certificates for purposes of criminal activity, fraud, or just entertainment. "Degree mill" is a recent invention for purposes of distinguishing outright diploma mills from other entities ranging from spurious schools requiring little academic work to merely unaccredited ones whose quality may be debatable. This new term tends to be used by persons wishing to avoid libel litigation and also by state legislatures that wish to deny legal status to an institution's degrees for a variety of reasons. As such, "degree mill" is actually more vague and should be used with care. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.17.172 (talk • contribs)

[edit] UotC accreditation conversation

I realize this is off-topic, but we have a discussion going on in Talk:University of the Cumberlands regarding school accreditation and accreditation agencies that may be of interest to visitors to this talk page.
Posted to: Talk:Diploma mill and Talk:School accreditation
~Kylu (u|t) 04:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia template for diploma mills/unaccredited schools

There is a template started for formatting articles that are diploma mills or just unaccredited schools at Template:Unaccredited. At the start of the article it states the lack of accreditation and later goes into detail. Arbusto 04:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a diploma mill slash unaccredited school. Differentiate between the two because a school could be unaccredited, yet not a diploma mill. We will have a very small list that includes both (with references from professional sources to verify, of course). This new template mentions nothing about diploma mills. It is apparently for unaccredited schools. --Whore of Babylon 05:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)This user now indefinitely blocked as a sockpuppet
"{{{1}}} is not accredited by any recognised accreditation body. As such, its degrees may not be acceptable to employers or other institutions, and use of degree titles may be restricted or illegal in some jurisdictions."
I don't have the same reading as Gas...uh, I mean, "Whore of Babylon," but then, it won't be the first time. I think we all realize that there are unaccredited institutions and there are diploma mills, and the latter will necessarily be the former. The reverse won't always be true, but it generally is, and so it's worth noting, as appropriate, for each institution for which some advocate of POV-pusher wants to insist be represented by an article at Wikipedia. - WarriorScribe 05:41, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Please see List of diploma mills. Arbusto 06:11, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Experiential Schools

Are there accredited schools, or legitimate yet unaccredited schools, who commonly grant degrees based on experience? My Master's Degree, from an accredited school, had prerequisites to get in, yet a large percentage of the applicants had those prereqs waived on basis of their work history. Likewise my Chiropractor got in to Chriropractor school based on work history and test scores, while he to this day doesn't have a Bachelors or Masters. Not to mention honorary doctorates, given even to Steven Colbert for his work on the Daily Show! At the same time we've all known people who were at the absolute top of an academic field and held no degree. So can we mention in the article, and I don't know enough to do it, schools that are legit yet will actually give a degree based largely if not wholly on properly demonstrated or documented work or life experience? I'm not about to call this article NPOV, but can we have some argument for those who believe the system is only being bureaucratic in that it doesn't recognize real performance? --Mrcolj 23:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unaccredited degrees: Legal facts

The following are laws about unaccredited degrees.

[edit] Washington State

Washington State: "State senators unanimously amended and approved a bill that would make giving or using a fake or otherwise unaccredited degree a class C felony, a crime of fraud that could warrant five years in prison and a $10,000 fine."[1] Here is the law: HB 2507 - 2005-06 :Prohibiting false or misleading college degrees.[2] (top of page three)

False academic credential means a document that provides evidence or demonstrates completion of an academic or professional course of instruction beyond the secondary level that results in the attainment of an academic certificate, degree, or rank, and that is not issued by a person or entity that: (i) Is an entity accredited by an agency recognized as such by rule of the higher education coordinating board or has the international equivalents of such accreditation; or (ii) is an entity authorized as a degree-granting institution by the higher education coordinating board; or (iii) is an entity exempt from the requirements of authorization as a degree-granting institution by the higher education coordinating board; or (iv) is an entity that has been granted a waiver by the higher education coordinating board from the requirements of authorization by the board. Such documents include, but are not limited to, academic certificates, degrees, coursework, degree credits, transcripts, or certification of completion of a degree.

[edit] Oregon, North Dakota, New Jersey

On unaccredited degrees.

Is Oregon the only state that disallows use of unaccredited degrees? No. It is also illegal in North Dakota, see (www.state.nd.us/cte/post-secondary/programs/priv-post-inst/real-degree.pdf) and New Jersey, see (www.njtrainingsystems.org/) to use unaccredited degrees. It is illegal in Indiana, see (www.in.gov/cope/directory/) to use an unaccredited doctorate. See those states’ laws for details. Many other states are considering similar laws in order to prevent fraud.[3]

[edit] Removed statement

I removed the statement about University of Phoenix and Strayer Univeristy, neither school is a "diploma mill". It is completely contradictory to state that regional accrediting agencies approve "quality" online programs and then flame two schools that are regionally accredited. The information is not factual; it was placed there due to the author's personal bias and lack of research. Phoenix has been accredited since 1978 by the NCA/HLC (same as Arizona State) and Strayer since 1981 by Middle States (same as University of Maryland).

Here are links for reference:

http://www.msche.org/Institutions_Directory.asp (a direct link from the Middle States website showing Strayer's accreditation status and history, just type "Strayer" into the search box)

http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/InstDetail.asp (a listing of Strayer's accreditation status from the Office of Post-Secondary Education website, same as above, type "strayer" into the search box)

http://chea.org/search/actionInst.asp?CheaID=409 (Strayer's Accreditation Status from Council for Higher Education Accreditation's Database)

http://chea.org/search/actionInst.asp?accredID=3;Middle%20States%20Association%20of%20Colleges%20and%20Schools (list of schools accredited by Middle States including Princeton, University of Maryland, and Cornell University)

http://www.ncahlc.org/index.php?option=com_directory&Action=ShowBasic&instid=1949 (a direct links from the NCA-HLC website showing UOP's accreditation status and history)

http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/InstList.asp (a listing of UOP's accreditation by campus from the Office of Post-Secondary Education website)

http://chea.org/search/actionInst.asp?CheaID=1404 (University of Phoenix's accreditation status from the CHEA website)

http://chea.org/search/actionInst.asp?accredID=4;North%20Central%20Association%20of%20Colleges%20and%20Schools (list of schools accredited by the NCA-HLC including Arizona State, University of Illinois-Urbana Champaign, Depaul and Notre Dame)

[edit] "Based in Romania and Israel"

I am changing this passage since to say they were specifically based in these nations gives somewhat of a false impression when it is likely they just had mailboxes there. It would kinda be like stating a multinational corporation was based in the Cayman Islands (or other tiny tax haven) when they probably have no employees and no infrastructure (possibly besides a single mailbox) anywhere near the Island.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 18:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


It was my understanding that the admin was done in Romania, the printing in Israel and the cerificates shipped to the USA for posting there (to avoid the connection with the UDP)

[edit] Need for additional "definition"

The following text, in various forms and under various headings, has been added (and promptly deleted) several times in the last several days:

- Definition: Education institution not registered accordingly the law of a nation or country or awarding degrees without a license or permit. Unaccredited education institutions will not be considered diploma mills or illegitimate, if they are registered or have a license or permit.

The user inserting appears to be added like text to related articles. Not only is the addition of a separate "definition" like this not in keeping with general wiki-style, it appears on the face of it to be factually inaccurate (a "licensed" business can still very much be considered a diploma mill, if the "license" in question is not an appropriate academic accreditation). I would urge Consejero to consider his edits more carefully; if not, I hope an admin will do so for him. Robertissimo 02:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Consejero has violated the 3RR within 24 hour WP rule. I have requested, to no avail, that he discuss these type things on his talk page, in edit notes, and/or on the talk page for the various articles that he has been reverting over the last few days. Bill Huffman 03:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Consejero, there is no specific "author" to this article. Stop writing notes to the non-existant author of the article in the article. You have been asked many times. You apparently don't understand WP. You are being destructive rather constructive. The article should look as "professional" as possible at all times. Your notes about what should be in the article should NOT be in the article. I am not afraid of diploma mills. I doubt anyone editing these pages are afraid of diploma mills. Please don't put insulting things in the article like that. Please stop editing WP until you have a better understanding as to what WP is and how it works. Thank you, Bill Huffman 19:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John Bear quote

Hi Bill, the source listed doesn't include the quote below, and I couldn't find it elsewhere online. Is it from his book perhaps or another source?

"John Bear, a recognized expert on distance learning and diploma mills, explains,

"it is very risky to buy a fake degree or to claim to have a degree that you have not earned. It is like putting a time bomb in your resumé. It could go off at any time, with dire consequences. The people who sell fake degrees will probably never suffer at all, but the people who buy them often suffer mightily. And -- particularly if their "degree" is health-related -- their clients may be seriously harmed.[2]

Flowanda 18:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Flowanda, the quote is near the bottom of the article under the paragraph title "An Emphatic Warning". A feature that I've found handy in Internet Explorer is the Find command available in the Edit pull down window. The shortcut to it is ctrl-F. I thank you for your diligence. Regards, Bill Huffman 20:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I see it now...if it were a bear, it would have bitten me! (Sorry...couldn't resist) Flowanda 22:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 :-) good one! Bill Huffman 23:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] External Links / Articles

Article discussing the University of Esoterica Diploma Mill (http://www.geocities.com/university_of_esoterica/) has been removed a couple of times. This is an informative article with numerous references. Does the article violate Wiki policy?

Sophia Sapientia 20:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

  • It looks like a personal web page. Who is the author of this "article" and where was it published? Also how does this specific text add anything to a general article on diploma mills? --JJay 00:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I am not sure who the author of the page is. It appears to be a compilation of information from several sources most of which link back to, or reference the original source. I believe that this page contributes to the understanding of diploma mills by looking at an on-going diploma mill and pointing out their fraudulent claims (such as religious degrees are not academic degrees and are exempt from having to maintain accreditation and academic standards). Sophia Sapientia 14:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Without an author and a reputable publisher, the "article" fails WP:RS and WP:V. See the section in WP:V on self-published sources. In addition, the links on the geocities page are all to the state school lists( Maine, Michigan, Oregon), which are already directly linked from this article. --JJay 15:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish Times Article

I tried to find the article at the Irish Times website but could not find it. Can someone let me know where the originally referenced article can be found?

Piercetp 14:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Pierce, The references sections says, "(November 24, 1998) A dirty dozen - 12 famous diploma mills. Education & Living section", Regards, Bill Huffman 21:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
A bit dated, is it not? Piercetp 23:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
It is a good overview and the diploma mills identified in it are even still amongst the most famous mills. If you would like to suggest an alternative that is more up to date then I'm open to your suggestion. I do know of an Inside Higher Education article that might do that. Although it too mentions KWU/WNU. :-) Regards, Bill Huffman 01:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Disagreement here. The information is no longer relevent. As this is to be encyclopedic I really do not see a reason to include it here. I might even think it to be libelous. I have noticed several instanced here on Wikipedia where articles which had been quoted have been deleted.
If you want an alternative you might quote the often qooted State of Oregon article on unaccredited institutions of higher learning. Piercetp 04:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
If this were a Consumer Reports article on how to choose a university, I would agree that a 1998 article is irrelevant. However, in an encyclopedia article, historical information is relevant. If the Irish Times article was a milestone in alerting people to diploma mills or if it was widely discussed, it's still relevant. Also, it appears that the deleted passage had been mistakenly edited to include info that might belong elsewhere in the article. Here it is, as it existed until recently:
The Irish Times 1998 list of twelve famous diploma mills
In November 1998, The Irish Times listed with commentary the following twelve education businesses in an article entitled, A dirty dozen - 12 famous diploma mills.[1]
  1. Columbia State University, Louisiana: Shut down by the Attorney-General of Louisiana after an aggressive marketing campaign that promised degrees within 27 days. Advertised in The Economist.
  2. La Salle University, Louisiana: Claims to be restructuring itself after its founder president was jailed and the premises were raided by the FBI. The biggest institution of its kind in the United States. Advertises in The Economist.
  3. Chadwick University, Alabama: The second largest institution of its kind in the United States, it claims accreditation from a bogus agency. Alabama law prevents it from accepting students from Alabama. Also operates the American Institute of Computer Science. It was founded by Lloyd Clayton Jr., N.D., who also founded Clayton College of Natural Health, a non-accredited distance-learning naturopathic college based in Birmingham, Alabama.[2][3]
  4. American State University, Hawaii: Recently offered an American reporter a bachelor's degree in journalism for $1,890 and a thesis of a mere 2,000 words.
  5. American International University, Alabama.
  6. Columbus University, Louisiana.
  7. Monticello University, Kansas: Advertises in The Economist.
  8. Frederick Taylor University, California.
  9. Pacific Western University, Hawaii: Advertises in the International Herald Tribune and The Economist, offering to "match your position with a legal degree and transcripts." PWU was shut down for several months in 1996 and was allowed to reopen only after it cancelled its graduate programmes in education.
  10. City University of Los Angeles, California: The name could easily lead to confusion of CULA with UCLA, the respected University of California, Los Angeles.
  11. Kennedy Western University, Hawaii. (Name has changed to Warren National University.)
  12. Trinity College and University; operates from South Dakota, USA and the UK. In February, 2007, several United Nations staff were fired from their jobs after it was discovered they had padded their resumes with Trinity "degrees".[4]</nowiki>
--Orlady 04:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of alleged diploma mill

Patriot Bible University in Del Norte, Colorado, an alleged diploma mill.
Patriot Bible University in Del Norte, Colorado, an alleged diploma mill.

The reason that I deleted the picture of the alleged diploma mill that was recently added to the article was that from my personal view it didn't seem like a significant or interesting picture. The alleged diploma mill in the picture does not have anything particular about it that makes it significant or stand out from other diploma mills except perhaps that it actually has a building associated with it and most diploma mills are post office boxes, private homes, or mail forwarding services. I do like the idea of trying to add a picture to the article though. Perhaps the picture of a post office box or a famous public building that is claimed to be the campus of some diploma mill might be more note worthy or interesting? I'm open to opinion. TallMagic 14:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Maybe a picture of a degree from an alleged diploma mill? --orlady 17:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I think those are all great ideas for images that would improve the article. Maybe we can get a list of diploma mills that have no physical existence beyond a PO Box and find someone in one of those cities to get a picture of the mill's PO Box? But I also think that the image of Patriot Bible University adds to the article. The school has been accused by several people of being a diploma mill, even if other alleged diploma mills are very different to PBU. As an aside, it appears that the PBU building is also the home of the school's executive director, Lonnie Skinner. Jacob1207 20:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I've given my opinion on the Patriot Bible University image. I would very much like to hear someone elses opinion. TallMagic 21:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I have added the picture in question, along with my proposed caption, to this section for ease of review. Jacob1207 04:36, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
      • My interpretation of the silence on this issue is that perhaps I'm the only one that doesn't like the picture. If I'm the only one that isn't fond of the picture then I think my opinion is probably wrong. TallMagic 15:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GAO section

I have an issue with the GAO section. Kennedy-Western University is listed in the GAO section of this article on Diploma Mills. The report referenced is clear when it mentions in its title to wit:

DIPLOMA MILLS
Federal Employees Have Obtained Degrees from Diploma Mills and Other Unaccredited Schools, Some at Government Expense"

Kennedy-Western University now operating as Warren National University is directly listed, but is an unaccredited post-secondary institution of higher learning; not a diploma mill. By including its name in the writeup at a diploma mill Wiki page is more along the lines of slander and unnecessary defamation of this legal unaccredited institution operating for 23 years. In fact, mention of Kennedy-Western is wholly and erroneously gratuitous to this Wiki page on Diploma Mills. I recommend removal of the Kennedy-Western University name from this section and this Wiki page to prevent guilt-by-associational thinking by the average Wiki reader who may not be up-to-speed on voluntary accreditation issues, nonaccreditation liberty, and actual diploma mill topics.

Additionally, the GAO section seems more like a review of the entire report at this page rather than what it needs to be; it is the largest block of single informational input. I recommend it be cleaned up to a more appropriate entry suitable for this Wiki page.

First though, I am seeking thoughts regarding my comments prior to actual removal of the Kennedy-Western name as well as my rewriting this GAO section. Rkowalke 20:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Rkowalke, you have not made an argument that seems convincing for censoring KWU out of the GAO investigation report. Please review WP:V, in particular "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source." Please check the references and you will see that everything stated is completely accurate and properly sourced. It is all verifiable. TallMagic 04:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of external link

I removed an external link because it appears to be spam to me. The link doesn't seem to provide any value above and beyond the Wikipedia educational accreditation article. At first glance it doesn't appear to rise to the level of a reliable source, (which admitedly isn't necessarily required of an external link). It was originally added by someone that in three years has made a total of 4 edits. All four edits adding an external link to this same website. TallMagic (talk) 19:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chicken and Egg Problem

I must admit in the past I have been incredibly ignorant about the diploma mill issue, but that changed a bit over the years. There are several things I wonder about. For one: how does a University become an accredited University in the US system? Every new school necessarily is unaccredited. I myself attended Hawaii Pacific University, which just had merged with Hawaii Loa College when I started there - all in all a pretty good and duly accredited school. At the same time it started out as a small, unaccredited one class school back in the seventies. A degree from this school would then have been illegal and literally worthless in some jurisdictions. So how does that work nowadays? Law makes it literally impossible to start a new school.

But there is more. Many of the characteristics of unaccredited schools linking them to diploma mills are displayed by schools that certainly are not under suspicion of being in any way illegal - including the University of London external programme, The British Open University and some of the better accredited external programmes in the US, such as Excelsior College, Thomas Edison State College or Empire State.

What irritates me is that experimental and/or new approaches to higher learning are severely impaired by the accreditation practice as-is. The state or authorized entities define content and methodology, favouring established schools while effectively incriminating smaller and newer ones. From what I see the development of the past 15-20 years was that small, innovative unaccredited institutions were pushed aside while large and established schools more and more adopted the methods, approaches and technologies developed by the previous. Current legislation and public discrimination make it difficult for the small schools to attract good students and first rate faculty: who - after all - would want to be affiliated with something that is potentially perceived as a Diploma Mill? Why spend time, money and effort for a degree that afterwards needs to be defended and justified over and over again? Chicken and egg... There is a lot of criminal energy under way - that is for sure. There certainly are many, many fake schools issuing worthless degrees. But I think that there is an immense spectrum, where everything can be found. Accreditation is a way of quality management, but it also involves an arbitrary definition of quality. As a result it is - at least in part - a means of control: a system protecting itself.

I find it extremely difficult to judge the issue. The presentation in this article definitely places every unaccredited institution into the same drawer as diploma mills, which certainly discriminates and even incriminates the real efforts of establishing new educational models. Normally the legal guideline is "in dubio pro reo". Why is it different here? And why is there so much bitterness involved in these discussions? Fact is that accredited schools also differ greatly in scope and quality and it often does not take much to get a degree even from alleged elite schools. OFten the quality differs greatly from programme to programme within one school. At the same time the legend goes (according to John Bear) that even Cambridge University is not accredited. If this is true (I did not check), it would mean that the mere formality of accreditation is not really the point. It also would mean that a degree from Cambridge University would - formally - be illegal in Oregon and some other jurisdictions.

It is all rather strange.

Wassermensch 12:14, 4 May 2008 (CET)

Hi Wassermensch, welcome to Wikipedia. I hope that you enjoy editting here. For general Wikipedia information you may wish to visit wp:welcome. Please note that this discussion/talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, not for discussions of the topic. Also, in the future please add new discussion topics at the end of the page rather than the top. (Note that it has been moved to the bottom, thank you Orlady.) That all being said, when legitimate institutions are first started up they are generally done with accreditation in mind. They generally become at least regional accreditation candidates for accreditation before the first graduating class completes. Which allows the graduates to have accredited degrees. But it's true that it can be a danger and should be considered whenever anyone enrolls in such a school. You point out that there's no fail proof formula for diffentiating diploma mills and unaccredited schools. At least not that has ever been formulated into a law. The reason for this is that educational institutions can be flexible and creative in how they approach their goals and diploma mills can be as well. It is true that the rise in number of diploma mill degrees being sold has severely limited the utility of legitimate unaccredited degrees over the past 10-20 years. Your last paragraph has used some facts and distorted them as I've seen done by diploma mill apologists in the past. I'm not saying that you're one but perhaps that's where it came from? I assure you that Cambridge degrees are legal anywhere in the world. If you look on the official list of UK universities you will find that Cambridge is "grandfathered" in as a legitimate UK university. Cambridge (along with Oxford, IIRC) was started up well before the crown or parliament needed to approve the opening of legitimate UK universities. If you wish to discuss the above type issues further may I suggest that we take it to my talk page? Now, the one thing you bring up that is totally legitimate/relevant for this talk page is your assertion that the article places all unaccredited schools into the diploma mill category. I disagree with that assertion. The simplest way to know that a school is not a diploma mill is if it is accredited by a recognized accreditation agency but, that is a different assertion. Regards, TallMagic (talk) 15:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)