Talk:Diocletian/Archive 1

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[edit] birthplace

born in the city that for a long time carried his name- Dioclea (today's Podgorica, Serbia and Montenegro)

What is the basis of this? I always read that he was born at Salona, and even that was marked probably. --Joy [shallot] 00:07, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From Serbian Wikipedia:

(Диоклеја, близу Салоне - данашњег Солина) (Dioclea, near Salona - today Solin)

Of course, the same is written in Croatian Wikipedia, and if both Croats and Serbs managed to agree on this point than it is definitely true.Mor Vilkacis 12:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Tetrarchy

Diocletian didn't strictly speaking split up the empire. The Tetrarchy is also covered in depth in the article Tetrarchy - would it be better to give a brief summary here under the heading on reforms and then redirect readers to that article? (Ostrich, you should remember to sign your name).

I don't think the "splitting the empire" section of this article is very good. It seems to be a bit faulty and simplified. I agree with your idea to leave just a summary of the subject here. If you want to rewrite it you should just go ahead. --Tokle 11:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Retirement

Regarding: "He was the only Roman Emperor to remove himself from office; all of the others either died of natural causes or were removed by force."

Is this correct. The emperor Majorian also abdicated.

/Rune

From the Marjorin article: Majorian was forced to resign by Ricimer. He died five days afterwards, either of dysentery or by violence. He was forced to resign (and was then soon killed (most likely) thereafter). I suppose the sentence could be changed to "..the only Roman Emperor to voluntarily remove himself from office.." --Stbalbach 00:03, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

- - - -

Justin II also abdicated

Gibbon writes: "The tardy knowledge of his own impotence determined him to lay down the weight of the diadem; and, in the choice of a worthy substitute, he showed some symptoms of a discerning and even magnanimous spirit."

/Rune

Too many emperors.. but I think in Justins case, he remained Emperor, if not in title only, until he died in 578. Stbalbach 01:08, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Isaac I Comnenus also resigned, if you want to include Byzantine emperors. Adam Bishop 06:16, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Diocletian's "economic reforms"

From Peter Johnson [03:14, 21 November 2005 (UTC)]: I'm adding information about Diocletian's institutionalization of serfdom.

[edit] Christians

There is no mention of the persecution of Christians and the Era of Martyrs!?

It is mentioned at the bottom of the section on military reforms. But since it really has nothing to do with that, I've seprated it into its own new section, which can be expanded. It is also noted in the "Legacy" section. By the way, excellent illustration of Dio's palace you added! Thanks!--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 10:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dominus et Deus

Diocletian was not the first to claim the title. See the page on Talk:Aurelian#Dominus et deus. However, he was the first to make it stick.

[edit] An 'Illyrian'?

Treadgold says he was most likely a Greek.

Take THAT anti-greek scum!

[edit] Doclea

Perhaps someone should check out the article Doclea - a Serbian/Slavic Principality in southern Dalmatia. The two are connected - but a clear connection I can't draw. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:45, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 292 or 286?

The sidebar lists Diocletian as the sole emperor until 292, but the article on Maximian clearly lists his co-reign starting in 286. Can this discrepancy be addressed and corrected, please? --Don Sowell 18:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Picture

What is the provenance of this picture? The only information provided is a link to an informal website which does not label the origin of the picture. One verifiable portrait of Diocletian survives in the Istanbul Archaeological Museum. This bust head depicts him with the more common late-antique diadem rather than the Augustan-style in the article. I have taken a picture of this bust and I can change it if this idea has support. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.96.199.228 (talk) 18:05, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cabbages

It states in 'Retirement and death' that he farmed cabbages. I like the idea but is this true? Some googling found this page http://www.motherlindas.com/of_cabbages_and_emperors.htm. But I'm not entirely convinced - it has the feel of a hoax ..... I'm not saying it is a hoax just it might be. The article referes to H. Stieglitz (apparently a German scholar) saying that he was probably paraphrasing Eutropius. I can't find H. Stieglitz on google and Eutropius in his 'Abridgement of Roman History' (http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/eutropius/index.html) does not mention cabbages at all in the relevant chapter (9). Even checked for Brassica in the Latin Text. I'd love someone to come-up with some evedence for this but if not shall we remove it?

It's Aurelius Victor, Liber de Caesaribus 39.6: It was [Diocletian] who, when solicited by Herculius and Galerius for the purpose of resuming control, responded in this way, as though avoiding some kind of plague: "If you could see at Salonae the cabbages raised by our hands, you surely would never judge that a temptation." [1]. Geuiwogbil (Talk) 03:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Which is "Qui dum ab Herculio atque Galerio ad recipiendum imperium rogaretur, tamquam pestem aliquam detestans in hunc modum respondit: 'Utinam Salonae possetis visere olera nostris manibus instituta, profecto numquam istud temptandum iudicaretis'." in Latin, for the sake of completeness (text here). I suppose a minor problem is that "olera" can mean any sort of vegetable, but it does also mean cabbages. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article Pictures

The pictures in this article from The 1880's Young Folks' History of Rome are not appropriate. These pictures are artistic imagination from a children's book and are not an attempt at accurately representing Diocletian and his times. For example, the portrait of his head is redundant- and in the second picture the soldier's dress and equipment is anachronistic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.158.139 (talk) 06:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Good move, anon. Geuiwogbil (Talk) 07:21, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name

I've removed the following passage from the article: "He was the first emperor (after Philip the Arab) with a certifiably Greek full name: Dioclês. This is a full name similar in form to Heracles (Hêras kléos, the "fame/glory of Hera"), with the stem for Zeus substituted for the stem for "Hera" (Diós kléos, the "fame/glory of Zeus"). This was Latinized to Diocletianus when Diocles became emperor." Apart from the last sentence, these statements haven't appeared in any secondary source I've read. Whether or not the material is true, if this hasn't appeared in any secondary source, it's most likely irrelevant. If someone wants this material to return, they should provide a reference for it. Thanks! Geuiwogbil (Talk) 20:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Duje & Solin

I'm cutting some further material that isn't cited in the works I'm using. Do return it if you can find citations for it: Diocletian's palace later became the seed of modern Split, Croatia. Diocletian was laid to rest in an octagonal mausoleum, from which it was removed from the mausoleum in the 7th century while the building was being converted into a church. The emperor's remains were replaced with a shrine to St. Duje, a bishop of Salona who was martyred under Diocletian.[citation needed] Parts of the cathedral and mausoleum are now used as a reliquary for the bones of Christian martyrs who died during his rule. Geuiwogbil (Talk) 02:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Military reforms

I've cut this material:

"Diocletian expanded the army from around 400,000 to over 450,000: about two-thirds of the army's strength was frontier forces (limitanei or ripenses); The remainder were in the mobile units that the Augusti and Caesares kept centrally located in their territories (comitatenses). Since they were closer to the centers of power, and therefore more politically dangerous, the mobile troops were better paid than the frontier forces. This proved a cause for resentment and, later on, trouble.

The experience with the vexillatio system led Diocletian to reduce the legions of the field forces to about 1,000 men each, to assure greater strategic and tactical flexibility without the need for detachments. The legions of the frontier were kept at full strength (4,000–6,000 men). Auxiliary units in both mobile and frontier forces were usually 1,000 men each.

Also, under Diocletian the post of Praetorian prefect was greatly reduced in power. Instead, each Augustus and Caesar had two major military commanders, a Magister militum (commander of the infantry) and a Magister Equitum (commander of the cavalry). This not only divided military responsibilities, thus reducing political dangers, but it also acknowledged the increased importance of cavalry in the Roman army.

Many of the military reforms started by Diocletian were continued by his successors and largely completed under Constantine, who abolished the Praetorian Guard, replacing it with a smaller, more controllable personal bodyguard (the Scholae) of about 4,000 men."

If anyone has sources for it, they can bring it back. Geuiwogbil (Talk) 02:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)