Talk:Diocletian
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[edit] Persecution of 303
On one hand, some Christians clearly escaped, otherwise the religion would have ceased to exist! But to allow as the only comment that only apostates survived is clearly wrong and biased. See for example, http://www.althusius.net/node/54. Some were blinded, had their noses slit, their ears cut off.
Another reference which I cannot verify says 3000-3,500, not much in the greater scheme of things but the people executed were the leadership, bishops, etc. While this might not be satisfactory for sheer bloody numbers, it can sure demoralize a movement. And 3,000 (if true) is no great fun either if your group is the target. Student7 (talk) 01:11, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- The genius of WP:SS is that it allows detailed descriptions of almost anything the benefit of a proper home. The details of the Great Persecution belong at Diocletianic Persecution and Persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire. Obviously, the affair was bloody; that much is conveyed by the choice descriptions of the persecutions effected in Nicomedia alone. "Before the end of February, a fire destroyed part of the imperial palace.[158] Galerius convinced Diocletian that the culprits were Christians, conspirators who had plotted with the eunuchs of the palace. An investigation was commissioned, but no responsible party was found. Executions followed anyway, and the palace eunuchs Dorotheus and Gorgonius were executed. One individual, Peter, was stripped, raised high, and scourged. Salt and vinegar were poured in his wounds, and he was slowly boiled over an open flame. The executions continued until at least April 24, 303, when six individuals, including the bishop Anthimus, were decapitated.[159]" Surely that conveys a sense of the events, without going off into tangential detail on persecutions that happened far from Diocletian.
- A good line or two about martyrdom and the Christian movement would be good, and a descriptive "it was bloody and evil" thrown in to characterize the persecutions in the East, but I've lost most of my sources (the interlibrary loans came due a few months back) and can't supply anything to fit those purposes. I'm wary of any sort of numerical estimate here, given the weakness of the source material. If you can attach a good scholarly name or press to the estimate, I'd consider it. Actually, if you have any specific (and brief: we're running up against page size recommendations here) suggestions on how to amend the text to better describe the persecution, you should air them here. I'm willing to listen. Geuiwogbil (Talk) 03:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- RE: 192.175.84.19. "This section is grossly misleading, it implies that the "great persecution" was largely in the minds of the christians. Only a handful really lost their lives it seems to say." I'm sorry that you got that impression. I hope there are remedies beyond eliminating the line sourced to Treadgold. Personally, I think the Treadgold line is quite important: it's important to note for the reader that most Christians live on, either through weak enforcement of the edicts' provisions or through the superficial compliance of Christian laity. (The superficial compliance, of course, became a difficult issue for the Church in Constantinian times; it's what spawns the Donatist controversy and the Melitian schism.) Martyrs shouldn't be written out of the narrative, but they're less important than the great mass of Christians who survived. If you can suggest an emendations to correct the seeming implications that "the "great persecution" was largely in the minds of the christians" or that "Only a handful really lost their lives" (perhaps a well-sourced fatality line, as per the above, would be helpful here), I would be much obliged. Thanks for contributing! Geuiwogbil (Talk) 03:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
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- I appreciate the remark on summaries. Higher level articles tend to get reinflated all over again, exactly what the forking was supposed to relieve.
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- I agree that Diocletian may have had good reason in his mind to stop what may have looked to him to be a palace coup or an internal coup of some sort.
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- Nevertheless, saying that Christians escaped only through perfidy and apostasy is truly gratuitous. The persecution was aimed at bishops, apparently. They sure didn't escape! The people with their noses slit, and other mutilations didn't escape!
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- To me, it's like coming in after the Holocaust or Rawandan massacre and saying that the survivors must have lied about their faith, race, or whatever. It's a nasty observation and unfair IMO without a bit more detail.
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- Alright, so how do we emphasize that the persecution essentially failed in its aims without maligning the Christians or downplaying the severity of the persecutions? Does the most recent revision satisfy? Geuiwogbil (Talk) 23:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
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- Yes. Good. Thanks.
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- To satisfy other editors, was the "apostasy" statement taken from an otherwise scholarly source? My point was that Burckhardt figured out (as probably did other scholars) that there well may have been an attempted coup. But it is one thing to deduce a possible coup from the record, quite another to deduce apostasy since those phrases probably didn't slide through repeated Christian scroll copying.
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- Having said that, is it important to put (maybe in the subordinate article) that "one source thought that.....?" While it is clear where my sympathies lie, I'm not trying to force a pov article against true scholarship, as much as it's hard for me to swallow.
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- Thanks again for your consideration. Student7 (talk) 02:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, no, actually none of the sources I've read give much emphasis to apostasy IIRC. The "laying low" part gets the greater emphasis. Treadgold's actual words de-emphasize apostasy: "The persecution failed to force many Christians to apostasize..." Thus, I don't think it's too much of a loss to drop it. Details of alleged apostasy by the Meliteans and Donatists are better placed in the Diocletianic Persecution subarticle, where they can receive due emphasis. Geuiwogbil (Talk) 03:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks again for your consideration. Student7 (talk) 02:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
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