Talk:Diminished seventh

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[edit] Archived discussion

Archive1

[edit] Archiving, and Diatonic and chromatic now established

I have now added a lot of older, and also more recent material, to an archive (see above). A new article has been set up, partly to deal with issues of terminology that have arisen here . Discussion about application of the terms diatonic and chromatic, as applied to intervals or to anything else, is best conducted in the context of that article. I suggest that we now discontinue any such general debate here (and at Talk:Interval (music), Talk:Diatonic scale, etc.), and confine it to Talk:Diatonic and chromatic. – Noetica♬ Talk 02:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Scale Degrees

The opening sentence bothers me. I'd rather it say "scale steps" than "scale degrees". Scale degree (often, though maybe not always) implies a tone that can function as a root in relation to a certain key center. Maybe it could read, "seventh scale step of the harmonic minor mode."--Roivas 19:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not aware of the connotation you speak of. To me, "scale degree" and "scale step" are synonymous, although "degree" seems like the one most used. —Wahoofive (talk) 20:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Y'know: I ii iii IV V vi vii (half dim). Click the link: Scale degrees. Scale degree implies tonality. Scale step doesn't. It's like we're considering the dim 7 as a diatonic interval again.--Roivas 23:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I clicked the link, but the Roman numerals aren't there. Scale degrees are notes. The Roman numerals symbolize triads built on those scale degrees. Anyway, the notes of the dim7 can certainly be derived from notes in the harmonic minor scale; it has nothing to do with whether that scale is or isn't diatonic. But if you want to change it to "scale step", go ahead. —Wahoofive (talk) 07:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

If I'm the only one who sees it that way then I'll leave it alone. Maybe I'm crazy. Here's a quote from Arnold S.:

"The individual tones of the scale may act as roots, that is, each may serve as the lowest tone of the triad; in this function they are called degrees." -Schoenberg, "Harmony"

Not trying to start a debate or anything. It's no big deal.--Roivas 15:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Diminished seventh a diatonic interval?

As the article stands, readers would come away from it assured that the diminished seventh is a diatonic interval. (Read, checking for occurrences of the word diatonic, of which there are two.) Is this a good idea? In a couple of senses it is diatonic, but in a couple of other senses it is not (see Diatonic and chromatic). Perhaps this needs some work.

– Noetica♬♩ Talk 04:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Problem is, those two tables can't be titled "Diatonic Intervals" in light of our research. I guess I haven't looked back here since they were added. Can we just rename the tables so that "Diatonic" is omitted?--Roivas (talk) 21:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The relevant table is the first one. (The second one has to do with chords; its classifications are strange, but it does not say that the diminished seventh chord is diatonic.)
To fix things with the first table you'd have to go to the template itself, raise some discussion, and get consensus to rename or move it, or to amend its details so that it does not give a false impression. I think this should be fixed, in fact, since the template is used in several articles, where it causes the same sort of trouble as it does here.
That said, whoever made the template was using the term diatonic in one of several current senses: not one that I endorse, note! I don't endorse these things, just seek to clarify how terms are used. I would not, for example, want this article to say outright that the diminished seventh is (or is not) diatonic, since that would imply a unanimity that we know is elusive or illusory.
– Noetica♬♩ Talk 22:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It looks like you've already tried to do that (4 April 2007). I'll just add another quick comment to the template discussion page or something.--Roivas (talk) 00:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reason for deleted passage

e.g. It is created by taking a root, minor third, diminished fifth and minor seventh (1, ♭3, ♭5 and ♭7) of any major scale.

The diminished seventh chord does not contain a minor seventh. That would make it half-diminished (B, D, F, A, or Bø). Since the same mistake was made in two different ways: a flatted seventh (C, Bb) is not the same as a diminished seventh (C, Bbb)

Please see: Half-diminished seventh chord

This sentence implies that the diminished seventh chord is theoretically derived from the major scale. The statement, "the b3 of any major scale" is nonsensical.


--Roivas (talk) 15:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)