Talk:Dihydrocodeine

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Contents 1 Potency compared to codeine 2 stronger 3 stronger yet again / comparison to hydrocodone 4 IBS 5 Recreational Use

[edit] Potency compared to codeine

How potent is DF-118 when compared to codeine? Codeine article says about 10% of codeine is converted to morphine and this says that DF-118 is 30% potency of morphine. Does that mean that DF-118 is 3x as strong as codeine? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.30.17.38 (talk • contribs) 20:49, November 18, 2005

DHC is a more effective anlgesic than codeine for several reasons. From personal experience, it is more euphoric than codeine. Opioid analgesics work in part from their anxiolytic and reality detaching effects,(the psychic component of opioid analgesia). It has a much wider range of use in this respect, as its effective range from mild analgesic to euphoriant, is much wider. It is difficult to put into words, it just has a certain 'zing' to it codeine lacks (analgesically, and euphorically). Also having ~3x > bioavailability (S.C,I.M,I.V) than codeine, it is even far more effective than codeine by injection, w/w. It creates a strong dependency, but is a relatively functional opiate, even in large doses, cf.bupreorphine, morphine. It is not exceptionally sedating, in fact it can have a paradoxical stimulating effect. I estimate it to be 1.5x stronger orally, and 3-4x by injection. Though you could not take inceased levels of codeine to acheive the same effect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.108.95 (talk • contribs) 20:41, April 18, 2008

In reply to the above, my understanding is that DHC is about 1.5 to 2 times more potent than codeine. According to the British National Formulary however, codeine and dihydrocodeine are more or less equipotent. There is much controversy about how strong DHC really is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.12.30.34 (talk • contribs) 11:35, November 22, 2005

[edit] stronger

The reason DHC is considered a stronger drug is because it crosses the blood-brain barrier much easier than codeine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blonde2max (talk • contribs) 15:51, April 3, 2006

[edit] stronger yet again / comparison to hydrocodone

Another consideration (in the states) is that commerical combination products use higher strengths (i.e. DHC/APAP) for an overall higher analgesic impact. This contrasts with some of the clinicals done in the UK during the 1990s that only compared a 1mg or 2mg preparation of DHC and concluded that DNC was merely equal to ibuprophen. A 2001 Study in US found equal efficiacy between 32mg of DHC/ 712mg APAP/ caffeine and Lortab 10/650 (Hydrocodone/APAP). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Binkerzip85 (talk • contribs) 05:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

Ive been addicted to Dihydrocodiene for over 4yrs.ive been taking between 300mg to 600mg a day.ive been trying to dettox off dihydrocodiene for over 2yrs now but find it VERY hard. The withdrawls are horific,insomnia,sever Depresion and flu like symptoms.ive seen my doctor sbout this and at first wanted to put me on methadone.i wasnt keen to go on methadone so she has put me on 120mg of DHC continus a day,i still suffer sever withdrawls but im sure its better taking the dihydrocodiene than the methadone.if anyone has suffered with dihydrocodien addiction and has succsefully detoxed off them i would like to hear if you have any advice.DFDen —Preceding comment was added at 17:38, March 19, 2007

Here's some advice to the above from someone who has first been addicted to DHC, then to Heroin, then to Methadone. Heroin & DHC withdrawel were similar for me. Methadone was not as bad physically, but the depression was much worse. I found and still find that giving up opiates has not lifted my depression so you always have the feeling that you either want to become addicted again or top yourself (between a rock & a hard place, so to speak). I feel for you and the many thousands of people like you in the UK at least; maybe for you the answer is to stay addicted, but I am certainly not a physician, I'm an opiate addict. As an aside Subutex (buprenorphine) seems popular as a detox here (UK). JSM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.57.241.227 (talk) 09:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

GABAergics (benzodiazepines ie diazepam, GHB) can releive the symptoms of withdrawal, taper the dose down to nothing while taking the GABAergic, then taper down the GABAergic. If you have an underlieing medical condition resulting in you self-medicating with opiates eg depression/anxiety/pain then that needs to be treated as well. There is also the "rapid detox" method whereby they administer you with an opioid antagonist and knock you out with sedatives, this is however not a good idea considering that acute opiate withdrawal is neurotoxic - I'll get a reference if you want on that - afaik GABAergics inhibit the neurotoxicity of opiate withdrawal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blahfooblahfooblah356 (talk • contribs) 13:06, November 19, 2007

[edit] IBS

"Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) in its diarrhoeal and cyclical forms as well as other conditions causing hypermotility and/or intestinal cramping. The gut itself contains its own opioid receptors, which also allows opioids which do not enter the CNS at all or in appreciable quantites following oral administration such as the pethidine-related drugs loperamide, diphenoxylate, and difenoxin to work in the same fashion in a significant percentage of the population. These drugs also have direct anticholinergic effects which contribute to their action. The loperamide-like drugs, however, can exacerbate cyclical IBS and have little or no effect on the cramps associated with all major forms of IBS and exacerbate the constipation-predominant manifestation of this condition. As a result, the most effective opioids for this spectrum of GI complaints would be whole-opium preparations such as paregoric, laudanum, Dover's Powder, granulated opium, opium in pill form etc., with codeine and dihydrocodeine working very well also, especially on diarrhoeal and cyclical IBS. Whole opium contains not only morphine and codeine and other narcotic alkaloids but also the alkaloid papaverine, a smooth-muscle relaxant, and other alkaloids, oils, resins and waxes which can help with cramping and other symptoms. Preparations containing both paregoric and extract of belladonna were once available that were probably the strongest and most efficaceous of GI drugs."

I dont know who added these comments, but they are unreferenced and seem to be mostly factually incorrect as far as I can see. I have major cyclical extremely painful IBS which I have to take dihydrocodeine for on a daily basis which relieves the symptoms and the pain. Loperamide ALSO helps with the symptoms of CYCLICAL IBS for me which DO NOT INCLUDE CRAMPING. Oral poppy tea with those alkaloids does help the pain but it makes the symptoms worse and causes me bloating. Antimuscarinic drugs (including belladonna) cause all manner of side effects, do not help the pain, make everything worse and I hate them. Unless someone would like to add a reference for the comments on all drugs relating to IBS - I am going to delete/correct them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blahfooblahfooblah356 (talk • contribs) 13:13, November 19, 2007

[edit] Recreational Use

The end of this article sounds like it was copy-pasted from Erowid or something. Somebody fix it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.69.86.183 (talk) 18:53, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm done with finals in a week, and after that I plan on deleting this whole section and fixing it. I understand someone's good intentions in providing info on safety with recreational use, but a lot of this information is guesswork, inaccurate, or just totally fabricated. The starting dose of hydrocodone in an opioid naive patient is between 5-10 mg, for moderate-severe pain. From my own experience, one Vicodin ES knocked me on my ass the first time I took it for wisdom tooth surgery pain. Another time, I took 17.5 mg of hydrocodone recreationally, and was so obliterated I couldn't type anymore. Another person may not even be affected by these doses. So suggesting doses for recreational use is not appropriate for WP, because recreational use of drugs is an inherently subjective thing, which shouldn't be brought into an objective environment. I'll be back.Ohnoitsthefuzz (talk) 07:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)