Talk:Digital object identifier
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Recently I've raised the possibility (on the Wikipedia-L list) of implementing DOI into Wikipedia in the same way as ISBNs are: the wiki will simply fashion a link out of anything that follows a DOI code. Problems are the parsing (how long is the longest DOI string and what are the stopping characters). Another solution would be an interwiki identifier ([doi:etc.etc./94809324]). Any ideas on the matter? Who does one approach to have this implemented? JFW | T@lk 13:46, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I created a template doi (see Template talk:doi) that simulates this:
The main example 10.1002/ISBNJ0-471-58064-3 (doi:10.1002/ISBNJ0-471-58064-3) seems to be invalid. Is this a made up example, or should this be looked into? --Alex 02:03, 2004 Oct 3 (UTC)
The ISBN example is not only invalid, but the explanation is also wrong. The "-3" does not refer to a specific part of the book, but is part of the ISBN itself (in fact, it is its checksum). --Qlmatrix 14:17, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC)
Would it be possible to make something like the PMID WP:PMID that seems to be well integrated in wikipedia? KristianMolhave 20:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Difference from URNs
It would be great if the article could discuss the difference between DOIs and URNs, since at first glance they seem to do much the same thing. —Psychonaut 01:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] resolution
The wikilink to resolution points a disambiguos page. I have no idea where it should point. any help would be great. STHayden [ Talk ] 02:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] DOIs are not specifically a legal concept, so term 'Intellectual property' may not be the best
The article does not document that DOIs were originally invented to specify ownership of written work, so I am hoping that the more neutral wording of what they identify might be restored.
Since I chanced to hit upon this article, I read the opening sentence and found that, wow, intellectual property is key to the definition of DOIs. Wanting to know if this was a well-settled conclusion of the editors working here, I found that from January 2004 until April 2006 this article had basically this opening sentence:
- A digital object identifier (or DOI) is a permanent identifier (permalink) given to a World Wide Web file or other Internet document so that if its Internet address changes, users will be redirected to its new address.
Then, after an edit on 3 April 2006 by User:Cogitabondo who never again appeared on Wikipedia, suddenly this was the opening sentence:
- A digital object identifier (or DOI) is a standard for persistently identifying a piece of intellectual property on a digital network and associating it with related current data, the metadata, in a structured extensible way.
This mixes together an information retrieval term (DOI) with a controversial legal concept. If a DOI pointed to a Wikipedia article, would that make the WP article intellectual property? The catch phrase about the DOI as a "bar code for intellectual property" is repeated in the article, but with no speaker identified, and none was easily findable with Google. The DOI Handbook more neutrally states "A DOI® (Digital Object Identifier) name is an identifier (not a location) for an entity on digital networks." Please reply if you have opinions on whether I should restore the original wording, or something similar. EdJohnston 00:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- In my opinion the term "intellectual property" should be replaced, either with proper wording from an earlier version or something else that accurately describes what a DOI is. 18 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.46.103.18 (talk • contribs).
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- I've made a stab at this. It is a somewhat common practice in some circles (semiconductor manufacture springs to mind) to say "intellectual property" where most of the word would say "document", "file", "resource", "object", etc. But I agree that it tends to drag in (mostly) irrelevant legal meanings, and isn't usually the most natural wording. Kingdon 14:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for your change to the article. It seems to cure the problem I noted above. EdJohnston (talk) 18:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've made a stab at this. It is a somewhat common practice in some circles (semiconductor manufacture springs to mind) to say "intellectual property" where most of the word would say "document", "file", "resource", "object", etc. But I agree that it tends to drag in (mostly) irrelevant legal meanings, and isn't usually the most natural wording. Kingdon 14:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Sorry to put a wrench in this discussion, but on the DOI.org web site on their FAQs page (http://www.doi.org/faq.html#1), a DOI® Name is specifically defined as "a Digital identifier for any object of intellectual property...A DOI name can apply to any form of intellectual property expressed in any digital environment."
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- The way this reads then, the "I" in DOI doesn't stand for Identifier (as I thought it did) but for Intellectual property. However, it's a little confusing at first because on their Home page (http://www.doi.org/index.html) the first sentence is "The DOI System is for identifying content objects in the digital environment" - but notice that this is not actually a definition. The first statement (the one with Intellectual property) is their stated definition.
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- Ironically, since DOI® is a Registered Trademark of the International DOI Foundation, then they really do have the final say on this definition since it is their own intellectual property. Take a look at the IDF Staff page for more info (http://www.doi.org/foundation/bios.html). There's only one person listed (does that mean they have a staff of one?), but there's contact information and even a telephone number if you feel like calling the UK for clarification :).
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- I don't know if DOI constitutes a "legal" term or not (i.e. recognized by the legal community as something that is enforceable just like a copyright or trademark would be). But it definitely has to do with intellectual property. At any rate, that's the official definition, even if it may not always be the "practical" definition.
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- Betsy R. (talk) 00:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- We should be grateful they don't use that terminology throughout. Their web site incorporates part of an ANSI standards document, http://www.doi.org/handbook_2000/appendix_1.html, which makes clear that DOI stands for 'digital object identifier,' and only uses the term 'property' once. The catch phrase that was used in the WP article for a while as part of the DOI definition, "persistently identifying a piece of intellectual property", is fortunately no longer found anywhere on the web by a Google search. EdJohnston (talk) 02:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- I suggest that Betsy's update of the article lead is overkill. Wikipedia does not usually go out of its way to announce who owns a trademark, and the naked link to the IDF's web site looks like bad style. I propose that we restore the former version of the lead, or something close to it. The reference to 'intellectual property' can probably be worked in later, since the IDF tries to persuade publishers that the system is useful to them, and publishers usually want to be paid for their work. Since the DOI identifier is regulated as an international standard, the IDF is not the only authority on the meaning of the term. EdJohnston (talk) 06:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Betsy R. (talk) 00:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] Privacy protection?
Recently 213.188.227.119 (talk · contribs) asked a question under Privacy Protection about why DOI providers need to collect IP addresses and domain names for people looking up articles. While this may be a valid point, I think it needs to be neutrally phrased (per WP:NPOV). If we can quote someone as asking that question (and cite a reliable source for them asking it), it is clearly OK. I'm not sure if we can ask it directly. I suggest this section needs to be rephrased. EdJohnston 19:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Besides that, I'm not sure that that's really a valid question. The DOI foundation states only that they do collect domain names or IP addresses, not that they actually need to. Maybe it should be rephrased as a note about privacy concerns, instead. 208.101.144.199 03:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I had email contact with CrossRef and DOI. They collect IP data to determine whether the system is abused. They store the IPs indefinitely which is somewhat strange (you may ask them using the published email addresses to verify that IPs are stored indefinitely). I believe that a systematic collection of IP addresses needs to be questioned. The amount of data collected is available here: http://www.doi.org/privacy.html "Our logs collect and store only domain names or IP addresses, dates and times of visits, and the pages visited" So the data is not anonymized. Next: "Data from the logs may be used to measure the number of visitors to the site". In my point of view, for single usage stats, they collect too much data.
Just a thought. 213.188.227.119 21:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
- Unless a published source has questioned their data collection practices, I don't see why we would get involved in it. That would be WP:OR. We would not normally publish the results of an email inquiry; we need the info to be in published form. EdJohnston 16:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Seems a little strange to get particular about publised sources on this point, when so far the article cites no independent sources at all. (Not saying that shouldn't use published sources, but should start by demonstrating notability and providing outside sources for what is here.) Zodon (talk) 17:53, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] 'Disadvantages' section is POV
I believe that the Disadvantages section reflects the personal opinion of the editor who created it. Any reflection on the lack of security or privacy about the DOI system ought to come from a reliable source. You can't just cite the DOI system's own policies and assert "privacy issues... still unclear." In whose opinion? DOI themselves did not say they were unclear. Since there are no sources, I suggest that the section should be removed. Since that would then give an 'Advantages' section but no 'Disadvantages', I suggest that 'Advantages' be changed to 'Intended Benefits'. Please comment on this possible change. EdJohnston (talk) 19:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- I concur, and I went ahead and did it. It is true that the article is generally lacking references, but the other claims in the article are not generally controversial or likely to be challenged. If references can be found for the disadvantages (or a good argument for keeping them temporarily pending the improvment of the article's references), revert my edit. ASHill (talk) 20:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
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- I oppose the change. No idea about the verifiability of the disadvantages section, but looked like they are likely to be disadvantages of such a system. There have been examples of similar problems with similar systems, such as Westlaw attempting to claim copyright on the citation numbering system for public laws. So since the disadvantages listed are reasonable, I think they should be retained and verification/improvement sought. Since I am not an expert on DOI, I brought them to a section here for further work/contributions.
[edit] Disadvantages section needs work
Though the disadvantages section was removed from the article (see #'Disadvantages' section is POV ). I think it has some potentially valid points, but I don't know the literature in this area to come up with verification. So brought it here for people to work on. Would appreciate help with references, improvement suggestions, etc. Thanks. Zodon (talk) 05:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- I think the Wikipedia policies are clear. This is no place for us to insert our own personal opinions. Unless a published source has criticized DOI's privacy policies, we have no business adding criticism here. WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH and all that. EdJohnston (talk) 17:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- As I understand it, items who's verifiability has been questioned may be moved to the talk page to be worked on (discussed, sources gathered, etc.) Wikipedia:Verifiability I don't see anything on WP:NOR or WP:SYNTH that obviously contradicts this practice. The opinions I expressed (that this is not unlikely to be verifiable, and that it seems worth pursuing) seem germane to improving the article. If working on/discussing this material on the articles talk page is not accepted practice, please indicate where that information is given in the documentation (so I can better comply with accepted practice), and where such discussion is appropriate. Thanks. Zodon (talk) 18:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's fair; I think the comment above refers to including the material in the article, not the talk page. If a reference is found, then we can certainly include the criticism in the article, and keeping the material here until that happens is the right thing to do. However, I've never heard the privacy concerns about DOIs except in this discussion. That doesn't mean verifiable criticism doesn't exist; I just haven't seen it.
- Preemptive warning: It will need to be a WP:Reliable source, which excludes a self-published source expressing these concerns. ASHill (talk | contribs) 19:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- As I understand it, items who's verifiability has been questioned may be moved to the talk page to be worked on (discussed, sources gathered, etc.) Wikipedia:Verifiability I don't see anything on WP:NOR or WP:SYNTH that obviously contradicts this practice. The opinions I expressed (that this is not unlikely to be verifiable, and that it seems worth pursuing) seem germane to improving the article. If working on/discussing this material on the articles talk page is not accepted practice, please indicate where that information is given in the documentation (so I can better comply with accepted practice), and where such discussion is appropriate. Thanks. Zodon (talk) 18:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Disadvantages
There are some issues to consider before adopting or using the DOI:
- Neutrality of code issuing or resolving organization : code-issuing or resolution restrictions inherits the dangers of censorship. IDF-FAQ-#22
- Privacy issues : ownership, security, data retention, and future usage plans for its resolution server logs still unclear. DOI-Privacy-Statement
- Lack of recognition and adoption compared with ISBN, or even Amazon's ASIN.
- Additional point of failure: additional resolution mechanism means another potential point of failure.
- Identifiers are numeric, so more difficult for people to use than alphanumeric systems.
[edit] Links to DOI on Wikipedia
It would be nice if this article (or the talk page) had some kind of links to how DOIs are used in Wikipedia. Some of the cite templates seem to have some way of using them, there is a bot . Still newbie on Wikipedia, so I don't know where such things are documented and how you find them, but if there is some clean way to do it, it would be nice to have a pointer someplace here. Thanks. Zodon (talk) 06:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
For example: Interwiki map[1] includes DOI Template:Cite journal/doc has DOI field Bot: User:DOI_bot