Talk:Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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-- Dietrich Bonhoeffer was one of the most important Christian theologians of the 20th Century. He did important work in the field of Christian Ethics and paved the way for some of the liberal Christianity of the type made famous by John Robinson in his works such as the book "Honest to God" - however, this article focuses on the events of his life, which overshadowed his enormous, incomplete and controversial theological and philosophical achievements. I think it is very important that we get a more qualified theologian (for NPOV we may need several, his beliefs are still something of a hot topic!!) to add some more flesh to this. VivaEmilyDavies 23:21, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC) ok

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[edit] Pacifism

It would be helpful to study Bonhoeffer's pacifism and see whether or not it is sufficient to write: "After he realized that diplomatic means to stop Hitler were impossible, he decided that assassination was the only solution. He joined a hidden group of high-ranking officers who were trying to have Hitler killed." The situation was far too complex to assume that he believed diplomatic means were no longer available. And to say that Bonheoffer thought it was the only way to stop Hitler is possibly not to have understood him correctly. In summary, the words "After he realized that diplomatic means to stop Hitler were impossible, he decided that assassination was the only solution" is not a neutral statement regarding his own thoughts and theology. Marco Funk marco_funk@yahoo.com

Certainly. It is in fact debatable whether we can state that Bonhoeffer regarded tyrannicide as a "solution" at all: the term might imply that he had resolved the ethical problem presented by the matter. This point may seem pedantic but the point at which the personal decision is made by the agent does not imply that there has been, in any real sense, a "resolved" argument. Open to further discussion on this difficult point.

HELP- someone was editing the Bonhoeffer article and it got left in a mess of French and computer symbols. (I was on here 20 minutes ago and it was fine; now it's illegible.) Callie Lowenstein

[edit] Opposition to Hitler

I disagree with the sentence: "While the confessing church was not large, it represented the only Christian church in Germany that was in opposition to Hitler's practices." It suggests (imh incorrecly) that all other Churches agreed with Hitler. The Catholic Church condemned the Nazi ideology in 1937 with the Encyclical Mit brennender Sorge. Also, the article should describe the schism in the Lutheran Church between Deutche Christen (filo - nazist9 and the confessing Church

--- Agreed. I had a go at incorporating the comments above, though without adding much detail; also at tidying up the description of events in the 1930s. New to all this, may try to do more later. --Rachel


I have done a lot of research on D. Bonhoeffer, and I believe that a lot of this report is false! For example, he was not part of a group of people that tried to assasinate Hitler. --Jon

[edit] Formality

Is there a reason, why the article refers to "Dietrich" (first name) instead of "Bonhoeffer" (last name) I think it's too informal and will change it if nobody oppposes. -- Fuffzsch 11:30, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Useful source for theology

Bonhoeffer, Dietrich (1906-1945) at Boston Collaborative Encyclopedia of Western Theology [http://people.bu.edu/wwildman/WeirdWildWeb/courses/mwt/dictionary/mwt_themes_780_bonhoeffer.htm Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1906-1945) (Matt McLaughlin, 1999)]

[edit] Re-wording

For humiliation, and for the edification of the SS-staff present, all four men were
forced to strip down completely in their cells before walking totally naked to the gallows.

Could this passage be re-worded for the sake for slightly more objective language...namely the phrase "for the edification of the SS-staff present"? Could we say, "to set an example before the SS-staff present" or something to that effect? ~ Dpr 00:06, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe Hans von Dohnanyi was hanged at Sachsenhausen KZ; Klaus Bonhoeffer and Ruediger Schleicher were shot outside a Gestapo prison in Berlin. Dietrich was hanged with Admiral Canaris, General Hans Oster, Karl Sack, and Ludwig Gehre at Flossenbuerg. Disrobing was used routinely for those condemned in relation to the July 20 plot when they were hanged at Ploetzensee prison in Berlin. Refer to other listings in Wikipedia for more information.205.188.116.196 07:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)Nyoreg

Isn't "Martyrdom" a little too strong in this context. In a Christian context a martyr is someone who chooses to die rather than renounce their faith. In the wider context "martyr" has emotive overtones that don't, I believe, suit the objective style of an encyclopaedia.Thecopybook (talk) 10:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's too strong; it's the case. We are talking here about the Christian context, after all. If it's ok for Saint Lawrence to say he's a martyr, there isn't any reason not to say the same here. Tb (talk) 12:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Early studies/Harlem

Can we insert a statement regarding his visits to the African-American churches and community in New York stating that this was relatively novel, that cross-racial activity was relatively rare at the time, and even more novel for a European (as opposed to a Caucasian/White American)? ~ Dpr 00:06, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Confessing Church

The article states: During World War II, Bonhoeffer played a key leadership role in the Confessing Church. I'm not certain that the timeline is accurate. He certainly played a key role in the mid-1930s, but I don't think he was a leader in the church during the war. -JohnRDaily 05:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article contradicts itself

The beginning of the article says that Bonhoeffer was arrested in March, but later in his bio it says April. Which is it? J.J. Bustamante 10:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] summary of his original theological insights

I do not know much about Bonhoeffer and was hoping that this page would offer a summary of what ideas made him famous and defined him. The article touched on what subjects he approached but not necessarily what he said about those subjects. I understand that he was famous for his actions and circumstances, but I also know that he has many followers of his philosophy. When revised, I suggest that the article be more specific about his original theological statements.

12.150.181.20 18:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)Chris Holby

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 03:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethics -- when published, when developed

Somewhere back in the Seminary Course I took on Bonhoeffer some 8 years ago, I remember that Ethics was on his desk when he was arrested in 1943. I do not think he had any of it with him in prison. I would urge a check on the detail that suggests this was finished by DB while in Prison. I do not think that is so ... only memory, not fact for sure ...

I do also remember that it was published after his death. Bethge arranged it in several different orders as he only had the typed manuscript and couldn't quite figure out precisely how it fit together best ... again, memory of a class with a man who wrote first book in English on Bonhoeffer's life: John Godsey.

Mantuan 00:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC) Mantuan

[edit] wrongfully convicted people

Bonhoeffer is a member of the category of "wrongfully convicted people". On what basis is this added? Was he not guilty? Did he not participate in a conspiracy to overthrow the government by assassinating the head of state? Is that not illegal in most places? I think he was pretty rightfully convicted... even if his crime was trying to do a good thing. Lordjeff06 (talk) 10:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Link to the EKD

The Link which links to the site of the EKD (Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland) is named wrong. In Germany we make a different between "evangelisch" and "evangelical". The EKD is lutheran. In Germany we see "evangelical" as a extreme part of the protestant mostly reformed churches in the USA. So "Evangelisch" and evangelical is not the same for us. "Evangelisch" means more like Protestants and not evangelical. Sorry for my bad english. This here is what I found in the Article about the EKD here in the english wiki: Note on the term Evangelical in German usage

The German term evangelisch more accurately corresponds to the broad English term Protestant rather than to the narrower Evangelical (in German called evangelikal), although the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada use the term in the same way as the German church. Literally, evangelisch means "of the Gospel", denoting a Reformation emphasis on sola scriptura, "scripture alone". The church described in this article is a federation of different, mostly mainstream Protestant churches, rather than one evangelical church. It can thus be considered a united church.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.143.110.200 (talk) 04:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Social Christianity

I would very strongly recommend removing the image of "San Precario" from the series on Christianity titled "Social Christianity". There are two possibilities concerning this image of a kneeling man: either the group perpetrating "San Precario" is not a serious group at all, or else it is inconspicuouly small. If the latter, it is certainly not representative of those who propagate a social gospel. Jajafe 14:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)