Talk:Dieppe Raid

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27 Oct 2005 - not only should the "R" in "raid" be capitalized, but it in military usage, the names of operations always appear in all-caps, ie Operation JUBILEE, etc. - Michael Dorosh

Maybe I linkified it a little too much? Opinions?


Looks fine to me. Adam Bishop 06:22, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I agree. It's defnitely not too much. Angela 06:32, Nov 8, 2003 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! :)

Why is the "R" in Raid capitalized? RickK 08:06, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

That seems to be common usage, judging from what Google turns up. Major battles usually seem to be capitalized: Normandy Invasion, Battle of the Bulge (hard to find examples that aren't just "Battle of <place name>"!)

Changed CEF to a generic "Canadian forces". As far as I can tell, the CEF (Canadian Expeditionary Force) served in WWI, not WWII.

"Casualty figures vary, but of the 6,090 men, according to one source..." - which should be cited IMHO. TwoOneTwo, I choose you! ;)

I have added some figures specifically about Canadians from a very good source, i can be more specific if anyone would like, i can not find out if it was 2211 (stated on pg 385 of the official hist of can in ww2) or 2210 (pg 389 in a chart), if anyone can figure this out feel free to revise my figures, i also stated the specific numbers of Fusiliers (584 not 600, not a big deal) - Neil McKay

Why bother with the +/- 1 clutter? Let's say "about". Beanbatch 08:02, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

What does LCT stand for "L...? Tank Carrier"? Mintguy 17:33, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Don't worry I've worked it out... Landing Craft Tank.

Wouldn't it be better to have the Commando links go directly to British Commandos instead of adding one-shot redirects?

I see we also now have links for several other units. Do we really want to have an article for every unit that participated, either in this battle, or all of WWII? Maybe in a military history wiki, but in a general-purpose encyclopedia? I think it's too fine a level of detail.

Er.. what is wrong with having an aritcle for every unit that took part in WWII? we have individual articles about individual Disney characters for chrissake! Mintguy 18:15, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Well, there must be hundreds if not thousands. And why just WWII? How about every unit that participated in WWI, and the Franco-Prussian War, and the American Civil War, and the Spanish Civil War, and... you see my point. There have been thousands of wars in human history, most with a great many divisions, platoons, or whatever. I think it would be going into too much detail to have an article about every one, even just for WWII. My rule of thumb is, if there is no website anywhere on the web dedicated to a particular subject, there shouldn't be an article either.
Now, celebrated units are another matter. Certainly we should have articles about particularly distinguished, famous units, just as we do for particularly distinguished, famous people and places. But we don't have articles about everybody who ever ran for the Senate, or who ever ran a large corporation, and we shouldn't have them about every group of soldiers who fought in a war.
I didn't suggest that we have pages about indivudual platoons, but Regiments are significant sized unites many of whom have historical significance. take a look at http://www.regiments.org/milhist/na-canada/lists/cargxref.htm I don't see why we should have a similar level of detail. Mintguy 03:20, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)


we don't have articles about everybody who ever ran for the Senate - well, not yet, anyway. Have you seen Historic Members of the United States Senate? RickK 19:43, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

would somebody please take a look at the first section of the article. reference is made the the 'joint chiefs of staff' this should read the 'combined chiefs of staff'. the joint chiefs were essentially american and the 'combined chiefs' consisted of the british imperial general staff together with the joint chiefs. both staffs were based in washington d.c.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bruce Condell (talk • contribs) 07:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Non-Canadian involvement

Whilst the majority of infantrymen, thus casualties, were Canadian, and the Raid was a key event in Canadian military history (perhaps as important as Vimy Ridge), I think that this article over-eggs the role of the Canadian contingent to the detriment of the other forces. Whilst Canada is mentioned twice in the opening paragraph, none of the other countries involved (UK, USA, France) is mentioned at all. Including Royal Navy and Royal Air Force commitments, the UK had almost as many servicemen involved as Canada did. In fact, of the British forces, 555 sailors and 275 commandos died, countless more were wounded or captured, 1 destroyer and 33 landing craft were destroyed, and 106 planes were shot down. The attack was also important in the history of American involvement in World War Two on account of it being the first combat between American and German ground forces in the war. Whilst it is understandable that the latter is reduced to a footnote, it is unacceptable that the former is. I am editing the opening paragraph to rectify the problem and to change some wording (as part of it is just a copy of a later paragragh); if there is an objection to the phrasing or stylistics, please keep the message the same: That this was a true Allied mission. Bastin8 13:12, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Good point Bastin8; I've included the US Rangers under "trivia" - not to trivialize their experiences there, but I don't know that their contribution was especially significant in any tactical sense, as they were employed in small groups. It certainly does deserve a mention however. I am not aware of any "French" involvement in the land forces at Dieppe. I disagree that Dieppe was a "key" moment in Canadian military history. It was nothing of the sort. It was a bloody disaster. Far more important were the military skills we developed later on - the APC, for example, was a Canadian invention in Normandy. Dieppe should be a footnote to our own history yet Canadians seem to dwell on it with relish. Why, frankly, escapes me. Michael Dorosh 23:14, 5 December 2005 (UTC) EDIT - ah, I see the French component has been added under 'trivia' - well done, and thanks! Michael Dorosh 18:00, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Not sure if it fits here, but McNaughton was eager for Canadian troops to enter combat. So why did WSC refuse to use them in NAfr? I know Granatstein says Monty had a low opinion of their COs; was this widely shared? Was it enough? Trekphiler 09:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes?

I deleted this:

(R.Nisbet "Roosevelt and Stalin: The Failed Courtship" 1989)
(D.Reynolds)

And rewrote this:

"One example of this retrospective justification and M.I.6 "spin" was the undeniable fact that "By the end of 1942, Hitler had at least thirty-three German divisions along the Atlantic wall ... in the belief that ... the British intended to strike again." (W. Stevenson "A Man Called Intrepid" 1976)."

I have a problem with the notes showing no page number, and the elliptical quote is inappropriate. Moreover, if it is "spin", what is "undeniable" about it? Also, "spin" is inappropriate usage for an encyclopedia. Anyone who wants to restore the notes with specific citation, & preferably a superscript number, go ahead. Trekphiler 09:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] VC

If 3 were awarded, who were the recipients? Surely this is worth mentioning, for the UK's highest award for bravery... Trekphiler 09:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Done

[edit] Leadership

I added critcism of Roberts' based on Hughes-Wilson's Military Intelligence Blunders & Cover-Ups, & of small units based on a TV documentary I've seen (the title of which escapes me...) claiming many were "led from behind", while those who were "led from the front" succeeded in comparable conditions. Trekphiler 09:41, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Small unit leadership will need a better source than that - cowardice is a strong accusation to make. I'd recommend pulling the reference to this until you find a decent source. I do know that at it is claimed that at least one boatload of Royals refused to disembark until a naval officer pulled a revolver on them - I'd have to find the source before using it on the page though; an issue of the Canadian Infantry Journal discusses it in detail.

[edit] Mike Myers thinking of a film about Dieppe

Ive heard that Mike Myers would like to make a movie about the Dieppe Raid, which war is his life-long passion. Would it be to add this into this page? paat 23:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

If it's made then I don't see why not.

[edit] POW policies; killing shackled prisoners

Why is there no mention of the second reason that Hitler issued the shackle order, i.e. Dead German POWs found with their hands tied behind their back?

http://uboat.net/articles/index.html?article=47

After the raid there were reports of German POWs’ bodies washing ashore with their hands tied and of captured documents stating that German prisoners were to have their hands tied behind their back.


http://www.oliverchronicle.com/1996_19.htm

The second page in Ross's prison camp album reveals a simple line drawing he created to depict the shackles that bound him and thousands of other prisoners; underneath the picture are two dates - Dec. 2, 1942 and Nov. 22, 1943 - which mark the time they spent in chains.
"This was a reprisal, a payback" Ross explains. "When the bodies of German prisoners washed up on the beaches they were found in handcuffs, so the Germans took this as a license to shackle us."


By the way; here one can follow the discussions in the British government in the following months on how to resolve the prisoner shackling issue. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/cab_195_1_transcript.pdf

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/cab_195_2_transcript.pdf

W.M.(42)137th Meeting 9th October 1942.
  • M/L.

Don’t go in for any further reprisal yet.

  • L.P.

Distinction betwn. manacling men in custody and tying up men not yet in custody.

  • S/Doms.

Canadians think we have put ourselves in a false posn. by concealing the truth.

  • Adam.

What we thght wrong was the advance instrn. to tie hands in every case to prevent destruction of documents wthr. or not any need to do so to prevent escape.

  • S/Doms.

Before any other action taken, we shd. invite views of Dom. Govts.

  • L.P.

We shd. now give more informn. for our own people, about what happened at Dieppe.

Stor stark7 13:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hardly a major victory over Canada

Not sure this latest edit "was a major victory over Canada" reflects that it was a joint arms operation with the infantry mainly supplied by Canada and the marine and air elements mainly by UK. I think it should be referred to as Allied. Also I don't think the repulse of an attack of only Divisional size which was non-strategic can be described as a 'major victory' although possibly the attack could be described as a total failure (barring the lessons learned) Stephen Kirrage 11:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map needed

The description of the battle is quite good an interesting, however a map would be wonderful.

[edit] References

"While dozens of books have been written on the subject, the three titles above are generally considered the best. The first contains a great deal of first person detail; the second is a detailed and very scholarly look at high level planning almost exclusively, and the last is a mixture of both first person account (Whitaker was the only officer of his brigade to return from the main beach unwounded and later commanded the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry in Northwest Europe) and scholarly history. Villa's book offers up tantalizing theories on deliberate leaks of information to the Germans, and attempts to prove the thesis that Admiral Mountbatten mounted the raid without approval from above. Whitaker's book attempts to prove that valuable lessons were learned at Dieppe and may be forgiven for some measure of bias due to his personal involvement in the historical action. Robertson's book is the most even-handed but suffers from being written before many files were available to researchers, especially those relating to Ultra."

I've moved this here because it seems like a personal opinion being inserted. However, I don't know much about historical sources, so I didn't outright delete it. --Wafulz 01:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Decisive German Victory?

This is begining to annoy me. Stop writing "Decisive German Victory" for every battle the Germans won...THEY DIDN'T WIN THE WAR, stop using the word "Decisive". Decsive would means: putting an end to controversy; crucial or most important. This victory would have been decisive if the Germans would have as a result of it (for example) ended up conquering Britain. This battle was a "Strategic" German victory. Bogdan 03:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree; in terms of the war as a whole it decided nothing, so cannot be described as 'decisive'. Perhaps the original contributor was trying to say 'comprehensive' or perhaps 'complete' victory, meaning that in no aspect of the engagement did the Allies gain an advantage? Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 13:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, it was a loss for the Allies, but it had no consequences whatsoever for the remainder of the war, hence decisive does not apply. Arnoutf 20:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Bogdan 02:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The article is about the battle, not the war as the whole. The operation was a miserable failure for the Allies. It may have delayed D-Day for 12 months. That is a decisive German victory, in the battle. Grant | Talk 03:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
We're now arguing about the use of English. Decisive implies important consequences beyond the battle itself - Stalingrad was decisive, 2nd Alamein was decisive, Dieppe was not. Often a decisive victory is also a comprehensive one and so the two words are sometimes (incorrectly) used interchangeably. Dieppe was comprehensive, not decisive because it did not in any meaningful way decide the course of subsequent events Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 17:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] naval action

The naval action where the invasion forces stumbled across a german coastal convoi did not involve S-Boats, but rather converted trawlers and whalers. Nothing was torpedoed anywhere, but it was rather a very confused gun action fought with automatic Flak guns at close ranges. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JCRitter (talk • contribs) 16:33:02, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

[edit] No Maps

Makes no sense to have a military article without maps or air photos of the battlefield.68.5.64.178 19:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment

I have assessed this as B Class, as it contains a large amount of detail and organization, although it requires more in-line citations. I have assessed this as mid importance as I do feel that the subject of this article plays a strong role in understanding Canada. Cheers, CP 22:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I, I, I. Who else did you consult? -- quota (talk)
He doesn't need to, and B-Class is the correct categorization. If detailed in-line citations can be provided, this article would be A-Class pending GA or FA nomination, as it is, it can't be better than B-Class. "Mid" importance is also pretty standard, if it was Vimy Ridge then "High" or "Top", but this is ultimately just one battle in our history. <eleland/talkedits> 02:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scandal?

I thought about adding this to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Military_scandals

Do it if you want. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 17:01, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] contributions by military historians/et al

The Dieppe raid was a tragedy and a disaster for the allied forces who took part in this operation, which consisted, mainly, of Canadian forces. However, this does not excuse the poor standards of reporting in the Wiki-article on Dieppe and the biased vocabulary. Would somebody please instill standards which are normally associated with a basic university degree (mod-history 101) and, at least, tighten up the text. Note: for whoever is interested: editing does not consist only of removing tracts of text which you disagree with. It also includes revisions of policy, grammar, punctuation, vocabulary, content, voice and substance; as it would be the case if any of you had found work on a newspaper as a Sub-Editor. I assume that we are all using the same University of Chicago Style Book (the standard work). If not, please get a copy before meddling with text. I also assume that 'wiki-editors' are experts in the fields of the articles which they are editing and will, at least, be able to show past higher studies work in the area which they are working on. This is not a collection of blogs for the inexpert, or the poorly literate!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.194.53.104 (talk) 21:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC) bruce (talk) 13:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


In the paragraph:

[edit] Canadian assault (para) incomplete location reference

Bodies of a Canadian soldier and a U.S. Army Ranger lying among damaged landing craft and "Churchill" tanks of the Calgary Regiment following Operation 'Jubilee'Credit: Library and Archives Canada / C-014160 Bodies of a Canadian soldier and a U.S. Army Ranger lying among damaged landing craft and "Churchill" tanks of the Calgary Regiment following Operation 'Jubilee' Credit: Library and Archives Canada / C-014160

The Canadians in the centre suffered greatly, at least in part due to the inexperience of Roberts, who unwisely committed the reserve force to the main beaches. Poor small unit leadership has also been blamed for failures once men went ashore.

The landing at Puys by the Royal Regiment of Canada was delayed and the potential advantages of surprise and darkness were lost. The well-placed German forces held the Canadians that did land on the beach with little difficulty. 225 men were killed, 264 surrendered and 33 made it back to England. The beach was defended by just 60 Germans, who at no time felt the need to reinforce their position. Several platoons of the Black Watch were also employed at Blue Beach; some of their casualties were suffered in a grenade-priming accident on the transport ships during the channel crossing.

The Black Watch landing is the first mention of Blue Beach as a location, but it is referred to as if it were mentioned previously. It is not. One might assume that Blue Beach is at Puys, but that is only implied.

Please clarify this. Did the Black Watch in fact land at Puys, and is that where Blue beach is? (As is implied by the text) Or is Blue beach somewhere else, perhaps close to Puys?

(I lost an uncle at Dieppe, I am proud to say that he single handedly took out a machine gun nest and got mention for it in The Shame and The Glory.)

--Tsingi (talk) 19:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 3.1 Air Forces

The article states 200 german fighter planes whereas the linked article (like most other sources) about the Focke Wulf FW190 states 115 fighters. That's a vast difference in numbers.

Also i cannot find any other sources confirming the appraisement that the allied fighter planes where at the extent of their operating range, giving the Luftwaffe fighters de facto numerical or/and air superiority over the battlefield. This is even entirely unlogical considering that one of the targets of the raid was to lure the Luftwaffe into a large encounter.

On the other hand i miss any reference of the factor - again i refer to the Fw190 article - that the Focke Wulf Fw190 was at that time a scourge for the RAF, outperforming the Spitfire in almost every aspect. It seems appropriate to conclude the RAF fighters actually HAD a decent numerical superiority over the battlefield but took a severe beating nevertheless (RAF fighter losses 106 vs. Luftwaffe fighter losses 25 including crashes, once again refering to the Fw190 article).

Flip a wig (talk) 19:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Page vandalism

See the line: Them damned Brits did not plan on success and sent the Canucks through a mass slaughter to appease those Commies in the East. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.229.40.153 (talk) 00:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)