Talk:Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg

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[edit] Rant

Just a trivial, very un-NPOV rant: In the Die Meistersinger Suite, the harp and percussion don't play until about the 300th measure (about 10 minutes into the piece). Then, they play for about 15 measures, and don't play for the rest of it. Which is why, with a couple of punctuation marks, we renamed it Die, Meistersinger! :) Dreamyshade

  • Why don't you include this in the Trivia section? You could say something along the lines of "Die M is unpopular with harpists because...". Although this is not quite as bad as the symphony (Bruckner's 7th?) where the triangle plays one note - right at the end of it.--Dogbertd 07:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be an erroneous piece of trivia. The harp does play comparatively little during the opera, but does play throughout (beginning, middle and end). It enters about 50 bars into the overture and plays in and out of the opera; and although it does not play the actual ending of the work, it does so very close to the end. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Batonpower (talk • contribs) 20:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In Act III synopsis, using the English word "section" for the German word "Bar"

The word used in the German libretto for a section of the Master Song is "Bar." The synopsis used the word "bar" as if it were the English equivalent. But that's a false friend (or perhaps a false cognate). A "bar" in English is a measure--a much smaller unit. Each "Bar" in Walther's prize song, however, contains perhaps two dozen measures. In fact the length and intricacy of these "Bar"s, and the tendency of each of them to extend and develop the previous "Bar" rather than to stay constrained to a tame, fixed length and form is a issue in the drama. So I changed the word "bar" to "section". Hope that's OK with people. DSatz 20:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When a word is difficult to translate, that isn't necessarily ironic.

The section called "Genesis" contained these sentences, which I found somewhat overwritten:

"Although Die Meistersinger is a comedy, it also elucidates Wagner’s ideas on the place of music in society, on renunciation of the Will, and of the solace that music brings in a world full of “Wahn”. Wagner was always enthusiastic for his operas to be presented in the vernacular, so it is ironic that one of the central concepts in Die Meistersinger is a word difficult to translate into English: Wahn. "Illusion", "madness", "folly" and "self-deception" are all variously used to translate Wahn."

My only complaint is that this isn't really an ironic situation; it's a simple, common fact that a given word in one language may not have an exact equivalent in another language. Perhaps Wagner would have felt a bit frustrated at this situation if he had cared or been aware of it, but perhaps not; more than likely he would have thought that we non-Germans should all learn German, if only to understand his opera libretti. I can't imagine him hesitating over this sort of thing for one moment.

Also (though I didn't do anything about this), Die Meistersinger is indeed a comedy--but there's nothing unusual about profound ideas being presented in a comedy! So I really don't think that the "Although ..." construction belongs here. It really seems like over-reaching, like trying to sound "literary". The information presented in this article is excellent, and doesn't need to be cloaked in a "literary" style to make it good. DSatz 20:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. The irony - as I perhaps didn't express very well - is that Wagner wanted his works in english for an english audience, however one of the primary concepts in DMVN is a word which cannot really be translated into english: this is irony in anyone's book, but I did think when i wrote it that to call this irony would probably invite some comment. I know a lot of people don't understand the concept. I'd be happy if someone else wants to rewrite this section in a less "literary" style: I just thought it important to point out the way that some commentators have found the influence of Schopenhauer in DMVN. I also need to add a section on Barry Millington's opinion (ie. that Beckmesser is a Jewish stereotype).--Dogbertd 11:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] anime reference

The Trivia section now includes the following: Boogiepop from the popular anime franchise is fond of whistling the tune to the opera. Would anyone like to say which tune that is? The opera has, uh, several. --GuillaumeTell 17:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Trivia

People, can we make an effort to remove the Trivia section? The guidelines at WP:TRIV suggest that information in trivia sections should be incorporated into the main text or removed. Some of the trivia here is very trivial (eg. attempts to note every use of material from Meistersinger in films or rock music) and I think should be removed. Some of it (the section on Hanslick) should be incorporated into the article.--Dogbertd 13:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've removed the section and incorporated the relevant bits of info elsewhere in the article.--Dogbertd 08:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Master/Meister?

Reading through the article again it strikes me that we've used "Meistersinger" pretty much all the way through when we're talking about the Mastersingers. Take a look at the article introduction to see what I mean. The Meistersingers developed a craftsmanlike approach to music-making etc. Would it be better to translate this word - except where it refers directly to the title of the opera?--Dogbertd 08:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)