Talk:Die Entführung aus dem Serail

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[edit] Naming Conventions

According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) this is where the article must be, and not at Die Entführung aus dem Serail. -- Paddu 06:19, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

According to Naming conventions on classical music - this should not be the case. I, an English speaker, more often hear the German form of the name anyway. I am moving it to it's correct place. --Oldak Quill 15:23, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (operas) is should be in German! Paul B 14:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It's also known as Il Seraglio. Paul B 00:15, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unverifiable Point

A well-known tale concerning the musical difficulty of the work is often told: After hearing a performance, the Emperor said to the composer "Too many notes, dear Mozart," to which Mozart is said to have replied "Exactly the right number, Your Majesty." (The authenticity of this tale is doubted, however, by some contemporary musicologists.)

I have removed this from the article as it is unsourced, anecdotal, as well as adding nothing to the article. It also appears to be taken verbatim from Amadeus, an admittedly fictionalised account of the Mozart/Salieri rivalry. --Alexs letterbox 06:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello -
Consulting Google Books, I quickly found two references sources, one for the tale itself, the other with skeptical commentary. I'm pretty sure that his tale is part of the academic folklore about Mozart; it was prevalent long before Amadeus was made.
The reference sources I found are not perfect, since they are tertiary. When I get a chance I will go to the library and see what source the Bartlett book was using, and thus obtain the original version.
As far as whether the tale useful - well, the fact is, it's there, permanently part of the lore of the opera. Our readers deserve to know what evidence there is to support tales like this.
Opus33 16:36, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Konstanze?

Should it be mentioned in the page that the character may have been named for Mozart's wife?

Certainly not if there is no published reference source that says so; see Wikipedia:Verifiability. I've never seen this myself, and it seems unlikely, given that the original author of the libretto did not collaborate with Mozart. Opus33 17:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay :) I thought I had read this somewhere, but I just checked the mozartproject.org and the libretto was originally named Belmonte und Constanze.

[edit] Libretto link

The text of the article correctly notes that the action in a singspiel mostly happens in the dialogue sections between the set pieces. Unfortunately the libretto link contains only the set pieces and none of the dialogue, so not much help for someone wanting to follow the action.... I wonder if we can find a better libretto on the web somewhere? 206.174.64.52 07:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Done. Michael Bednarek 02:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE NOT MOVED -- as there was no consensus for the move per discussion below. --Philip Baird Shearer 13:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Die Entführung aus dem Serail → The Abduction from the Seraglio — Per WP:UE and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (operas), this title should be in English as it is commonly referred to by an English title in English-speaking countries. Heimstern Läufer 03:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

[edit] Survey - in support of the move

  1. Support as nom. Heimstern Läufer 03:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support. Good to follow a general practice, and in this case I think the English is more reader-friendly. Opus33 18:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - in opposition to the move

  1. 1 Oppose The use of "Abduction" is much less common than the use of "The Marriage of Figaro" or "The Magic Flute", and I suspect that it is used more in the USA than in Britain, since I've only rarely heard it over here in England. I and most people that I know refer to it as "Entführung". --GuillaumeTell 12:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  2. Oppose. The original language title seems to be more common. Even a Google search for English language websites only gives more hits with "Die Entführung aus dem Serail". Prolog 20:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  3. Oppose -- This has been discussed here before (see above); nothing has changed: the work's original title is Die Entführung aus dem Serail and that's how it is mostly referred to in English. Sidenote: The Abduction from the Seraglio only barely qualifies as an English title, so the whole discussion seems rather pointless. Michael Bednarek 00:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  4. Oppose. As per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (operas) and Groves, which refers to it in German. Its not like entering "The Abduction from the Seraglio" into Wikipedia's search box is going to give no results. --Alexs letterbox 03:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  5. Oppose per Prolog. Grasping at my reference books to hand all of them seem to use the current title. Moreschi Request a recording? 08:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  6. Oppose The German title has become by far the more common one. (I imagine this is partly because of record companies marketing their opera recordings internationally). --Folantin 09:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  7. Oppose Per Folantin, I think the German title is more widely known throughout the English-speaking world. --Kyoko 10:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:
  • "Barely qualifies as an English title"? How so? Heimstern Läufer 00:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling of Catarina Cavalieri

This is a minor matter and the sky won't fall in if nothing is done about it — still:

There are three spelling variants of Catarina Cavalieri's name in this article:

  1. Catarina Cavalieri (correct in my opinion)
  2. Cavallieri (double L)
  3. Katherina Cavalieri (semi-German variant)

In Der Schauspieldirektor it's Caterina Cavalieri, in Don Giovanni it's Cavalieri without first name. The article de:Catarina Cavalieri uses Catarina Cavalieri which I believe is the most frequently used one; Grove concurs. The web page http://mugi.hfmt-hamburg.de/grundseite/grundseite.php?id=cava1755 lists any number of variants, but predominantly also Catarina Cavalieri. Should it be consistent in this article (and in Der Schauspieldirektor)? If so, what should it be? I suggest to use Catarina Cavalieri consistently. Michael Bednarek 11:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC) (hoping madly that he didn't introduce more confusion by inadvertent spelling variants in this section)

Hello MB, I agree with your suggestion; Grove is usually a good model to follow. Cheers, Opus33 15:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)