Talk:Dice notation

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Role-playing games Portal
This article is part of WikiProject Role-playing games, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to role-playing games on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this notice, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start This article has been rated as Start-class on the quality scale.
Low This article has been rated as low-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Variations

Good set of variations. Perhaps we can expand upon them with more examples? --אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 15:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I've pretty much exhausted my knowledge of variants, though ISTR there was a game that used a pack of cards and called it a "d52", but google turns up nothing about it. I'd never heard of AdXkY - could we put in what game that was from? Percy Snoodle 12:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The Dieroller in Metacreator uses the notation 1p52 to draw from a deck of cards. Bear Eagleson
What about "open-ended rolls"? These are used in many of ICE's games, and the stress dice used in World Tree are "maximum open-ended", i.e. open-ended only on rolls of the die's maximum value?

--Bear Eagleson 12:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC) (comment split by Percy Snoodle)

They're definitely worth a mention if there's a specific notation for them. Percy Snoodle 08:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
We need the actual -notation- on these types of rolls. :-) אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 01:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It may not be "official", but in the OpenRPG program and in the Invisible Castle online die roller (which is based on the OpenRPG die roller), the notation for open-ended rolls is AdX.open(Y), where Y is the first number in the range of numbers for open-ended rolls. Bear Eagleson
AdXkY? 4d6k3: Standard stat rolling method in Dungeons & Dragons. Also known as "roll 4d6, drop the lowest 1". I hope that helps. --Bear Eagleson 12:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Is it ever referred to as 4d6k3 in the rulebook? Percy Snoodle 08:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
No, it's just another place where the keep notation could be used as a shortcut. Bear Eagleson
I see. This article is for notations that are actually in use; proposing new notations would be original research. Percy Snoodle 14:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
OK. Bear Eagleson


[edit] Low/high roll

Do any actual games use the Low/high roll notation, or is that section a cheeky advert for the die roller? Percy Snoodle 15:06, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

There are game systems that allow for the dropping of the lowest die—or dice— of a roll, but I have never seen them note the roll like 3d6-L. I have never seen a system that uses either the +H notation, or the mechanic it describes.
—Asatruer 18:14, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
It is at least not meant as an advert for the die roller. But I would think since this notation is in actual use (if only in that die roller) this is not really “original research”. Might be a boarderline case, though. --TowerDragon 23:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stress Dice

As I understand it, Stress dice in Ars Magica do not function as described here, rather they are effectively d10-1. In addition, the described mechanic for world tree sounds like what is more often called "exploding dice" as seen in games such as Shadowrun, Feng Shui, Storyteller system, and L5R/7th Sea. Should this type of mechanic be included in this article?
——Asatruer 19:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

If there is a specific notation for it, then we can include it. Otherwise it wouldn't really be appropriate for "Dice notation" :-) אמר Steve Caruso (desk/poll) 14:43, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I think that the person who moved my information on open-ended rolls due to lack of notation, thought that all stress dice were open ended. In World Tree, this is true, where the dice are only re-rolled when you roll the die's number of sides. Open-ended dice that are not stress dice are used in other games, like ICE's title, for example 1d100.open(96) (again, OpenRPG roller reference: i.e. not official notation) in HARP. This is an open-ended roll, but not a stress roll, because HARP doesn't use two "types" of dice. Bear Eagleson
Come to think of it, an article on "dice behavior" might be in order. Refering to open-ended dice as "exploding" is probably a new slang term since this is the first time I've read it. Bear Eagleson
Perhaps it might be a good idea. If someone starts one, I'll be willing to contribute :-) אמר Steve Caruso (desk/AMA) 18:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

AEG, for 7th Sea and maybe even L5R, uses the term explode when refering to d10s that get rolled again when they roll a 10, so this term is not just slang. White Wolf calls this the 10-Again Rule. I am fairly sure that neither Shadowrun nor Feng Shui have a specific name for this dice behavior.
—Asatruer 19:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation, Asatruer. I think "open-ended" is the more common term. We could still use "exploding" as a reference to how open-ended rolls are referred to in particular systems. Bear Eagleson
It used to be discussed - a bit - on critical hit, but I think it got split off into Natural 20 which was then merged into role-playing game terms. Percy Snoodle 10:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] D66

I believe that d66 are not limited to Necromunda and Mordheim. I will change the wording to reflect this. --David Mestel(Talk) 19:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origins

Does anyone know who came up with the original XdY notation? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.81.9.230 (talk • contribs) 2006-08-30T17:02:44 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

I've cleaned up the beginning a little. Since there are a few changes, I'll motivate them here: I have never seen the notation 3d6+ and do not see the point in using it. I don't see the need to define B as a natural number; it should be clear what 3d6+1.5 means, even if it is never used in practice. (We don't need to be that formal here.) Also, repetition is not the same thing as recursion. Furthermore, I think the text is easier to read if the examples are broken up a little. Finally, I have never seen anything like 2d10+1d6-3 anywhere so I'm also changing that example somewhat. --Maggu 19:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

That’s all OK with me. Just one thing: “repetition is not the same thing as recursion” — This is a case of tail recursion which is equivalent to repetition (iteration). (Writing the basic notation with modifier in Extended Backus–Naur form can make this clear: die-roll=N."d".N.[("+"|"−").(die-roll | Y)]; or, equivalently, die-roll=N."d".N.{("+"|"−").N."d".N}.[("+"|"−").Y]; where N is a natural number, and Y is an arbitrary number.) But as you said: “We don't need to be that formal here.” :-) — TowerDragon 19:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC) + 20:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Standard notation.

I think there is a flaw in the AdX equation. A is the number of dice. X however doesn't mean the faces but the sequenced of objects I guess you would say. You can't physically have a d3. "die with 3 faces" but you can have a d6 with the sequence 1,2,3 apearing twice. This was how the original d10 was made from the 20-sided icosahedron. Normally it does mean faces, but really the number following the d represents the highest number represented in the sequence on the die; or the number of numbers on the die. 0-9 twice for an icosahedron d10, ten possible outcomes for the dice. If I am wrong and an icosahedron is no longer made as a d10 forgive me. Theoretically any dice could be broken into its multiples for a smaller range. There is maybe the correct word for the X, the range of the die. I won't change it but let people think it over. shadzar|Talk|contribs 13:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You are partially correct in that there are some die ranges that could never be made into a fair physical die and physical d3s do exist. Instead of using numbers, the "sides" of a d3 are marked with R, P, and S for rock, paper, scissors. This is easily ammended by painting numbers on the die, or you could just use the letters as numeric values. --Bear Eagleson
I have seen Janken dice, but mine is an actual 6-sided die with the numbers 1,2,3 printed on it twice. It is not altered. I guess then they should be considered variant notations for dice with a range other than its number of faces. shadzar|Talk|contribs 20:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
This is the 3 face side Janken die I'm talking about: Razor Edge d3. Perhaps this wording would be more to your liking: "In most cases, the notation AdX means roll A dice with X number of sides, and in a few cases represents rolling A dice within a range of X which may or may not physical have X sides"? --Bear Eagleson
I may be wrong, but think it doesn't always represent the numebr of faces. Can't find my die online, but dug it from my dice bag and sure enough it has 12 pips 1,1,2,2,3,3. Not that it needs to be changed, but just wanted people to look out for a possibility of confusion. Of course blank dice the X does stand for faces as there is no printed range. Sorry to sound so nit-picky about it. shadzar|Talk|contribs 05:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I said the same thing in my previous comment and was therefore agreeing with you. --Bear Eagleson

[edit] Minor addition

I added a reference to d666 from In Nomine under six-sided variations.

This article seems to me to be of a good standard - should it perhaps be removed from the portal as requiring expansion? Aidan 10:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)