Talk:Diatonic function

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[edit] Difficult to read

Hyacinth, you know I'm one of your biggest fans, but I find this article to be extremely difficult to read. I think it needs quite a bit more explanation, and examples that are spelled out step-by-step. I'd jump in myself and do it, but I'm afraid I don't know enough about the subject. Perhaps, if you are willing, I could just pose questions to get you to make changes to improve the article. To start: Perhaps you can fix the following paragraph. I can't make heads or tails of it. --Samuel Wantman 06:01, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thus a pitch may or may not fulfill one or more functions. Functional tonality refers to tonality which uses diatonic functions, non-functional tonality being when the diatonic elements are present (for instance the major scale) but do not use or fulfill their possible function as in, for instance, pandiatonicism.
Here is what I think that meant:
Thus a pitch may or may not fulfill one or more functions since it may be a part of many chords. For example a G natural may be the root of, say, a G major chord, the fifth of, say, a C major chord, or the third of, say, an e minor chord. To say that a piece or composer uses "functional tonality" is to say that they use pitches and chords according to and in their "proper" function or functions. "Non-functional" tonality is thus when normally functionally tonal diatonic elements, such as the pitches of the major scale, are present, but are used without regards to their "function", as in, for instance, pandiatonicism.
Hyacinth 06:44, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is a big improvement, but the words that you have in quotes are road-blocks to understanding. I wonder if you put them in quotes because their meaning is stretched or un-clear. "Functional" and "Non-functional" seem to mean traditional and conventional or non-traditional and un-conventional. Pandiatonicism has a function. Perhaps if you elaborate on and define what makes something "proper" or "normally functionionally tonal diatonic elements". I understand more from reading about Harmonic Function, but I think the basic problem is that your writing about "Diatonic functionality" assumes some knowledge of "Harmonic Function". I think it is possible to explain "Diatonic functionality" in even simpler terms. I sometimes try to imagine that I am writing for an intelligent 12 year old who knows nothing about the subject. --Samuel Wantman 20:24, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
As far as I know: Diatonic function = harmonic function.
You seem to have understood the quotation marks very well. One problem is that the term is usually not explicitly defined, and as with a lot of musical terms, appears to be defined by what it is said not to be, or what it is said to describe, in any given discussion. For instance, as in the article, function is said to be the names given to pitches to describe their functions (and not in a figurative manner). The circularity is found outside of this article. The article dominant describes: dominant note (second most important) of a key is that which is a perfect fifth above the tonic." Thus, in this usage, neither "dominant" and "perfect fifth above the tonic" describe or explain each other, they are just different words for the same name.
One explination of function: "Regardless of what system is chosen to model tonal function, solmization training cannot be undertaken halfheartedly. Developing listerners must cast the syllables across the diatonic collection with constant repetition and learn to associate specific syllables with specific scale degress--particularly the tonic during early stages--so that a kind of brainwashing in musical functionality takes hold." Karpinski, Gary S. (2000). Aural Skills Acquisition: The Development of Listening, Reading, and Performing Skills in College-Level Musicians, p.87. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195117859.
If the quote directly above is accurate, "function" is an intuitive knowledge of what the scale degrees (I, IV, etc) and functions (tonic, subdominant, etc) are supposed mean.
Food for thought. Hyacinth 21:08, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

From Tristan chord:

  • "Wagner actually provoked the sound or structure of musical harmony to become more predominant than its function, a notion which was soon after to be explored by Debussy and others."
Here's an attempt:
The function of the dominant, for example, is to preceed the tonic, providing, for instance the strongest (most final) and thus final (last) cadence. If this is done in a piece that piece uses functional harmony in that respect. If, however, a piece where to preceed the tonic with a chord other than the dominant in the last cadence it would be nonfunctional.
Hyacinth 07:35, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
what follows below is from Chord (music):

[edit] Harmonic Function

Tonal music relies upon a key to indicate the natural relationships between the major and minor chords that result from the natural diatonic relationships. For instance, in any major key, the quality of a chord built on the fifth note of the scale will be major. This is because of the constant relationship between the tonal intervals of major scale.

Chords are also said to have a function in their diatonic scale, which relates to the expected resolution of each chord within a key. The strongest form of motion has root movement by fifth, which is the characteristic sound used as finality in most music of the baroque and classical periods (common practice period), and is also exploited to modulate a piece of music into a different key. The chord function for a major scale is as follows:

  • The I, III and VI chord are said to have a Tonic Function, due to the fact that they have a stable sound and do not have a tendency to resolve. When a chord progression resolves to a III or VI chord, it is called a Tonic Substitution, because the stable III or VI chord is being used as a substitute for the expected I chord.
  • The VII and the V chord are said to have a Dominant Function, and they have a strong tendency to resolve to other chords. The five down a perfect fifth to the I chord and the VII chord up a minor second to the I chord, due to the expected resolution of the tritone, or the highly unstable diminished fifth which is present in a diatonic VII chord.
  • The II and IV chords have Subdominant Function, partially due to the fact that they are a fifth away from the Dominant chords of a key, and partially because in their own Tonic keys, their respective Dominant chords are built on the root notes of the stable Tonic function I and VI. They are also referred to as Dominant Preparation chords, and are used to approach a Dominant function chord. The progression IV-V-I, (subdominant, dominant, tonic) is by far the most common chord progression in all of music, and can be found in an astonishingly wide variety of styles, forms, and genres.

The spellings of the diatonic triads of the C major scale are given in the following table, along with their quality, name, and function"

I       -- C E G -- major -- C major -- tonic
ii      -- D F A -- minor -- D minor -- subdominant
iii     -- E G B -- minor -- E minor -- tonic
IV      -- F A C -- major -- F major -- subdominant
V       -- G B D -- major -- G major -- dominant
vi      -- A C E -- minor -- A minor -- tonic
vii°    -- B D F -- dim.  -- B dim   -- dominant

There is another type of chord function, Subdominant Minor, which is reserved for non-diatonic chords, or chords that do not occur naturally in the diatonic key, and will be dealt with separately under the heading Modal Interchange.

end paste

[edit] Removed: Meantone

I removed the following

  • Diatonic functionality cannot be defined in pure equal temperament terms, but it can, however, be defined in meantone terms. Diatonic functionality for music tuned to equal temperament can be thought of as deriving from equal temperament as a tuning of logical, or abstract, meantone. That is, it is basic to the diatonic scale and diatonic functionality that four fifths up and two octaves down gives a major third, and that the supertonic or ii chord is both in a relation of a fifth above the dominant, or V chord, and a minor third below the subdominant, or IV chord. This entails the presence of logical meantone, but diatonic functionality does not assume other characteristic structural features of equal temperament.

I don't think this is true or correct, but more importantly I think it is not relevant. Hyacinth 12:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unreadable

I find the introduction particularly repulsive, whereas it should be the most accessible section. "Excercise"? You mean "exercise"? And if so, what do you mean? Where does Wilson's quote start? I would do with a few wikilinks, because using Google for each word/expression and failing to find meaningful hits is a very frustrating way to attempt to read an article that I should have some familiarity with. Also I don't like the title ("Diatonic functionality"), because it suggests "feature". I propose "Diatonic functions" instead. Thanks. PizzaMargherita 02:12, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

We might debate the title change, but for everything else, wade right in and fix it. —Wahoofive (talk) 04:30, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I can only fix what I understand, sorry. Your revised version of the intro (circa April 2005) read much better. PizzaMargherita 08:31, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
PM, please see Talk:Diatonic_function#Difficult_to_read as an example of how we can improve the article. To answer your questions so far:
  • There is no Wilson quote. I have simply summarized his information and sited the source.
  • I moved the article to "Diatonic function" per your request and on the principle that "diatonic function" is simpler and thus preferrable to "diatonic functionality". However, functionality is a "feature" and music which uses diatonic fucntions may also be described as using functional tonality (meaning the same thing).
  • Looking at Special:Search/Excercise this is quite the common misspelling. Exercise is what was meant, however, and was meant in the sense of use, performance, practice, or "the act of bringing into play or realizing in action" ([1]). I use the word after Wilson.
Wahoofive's version of the introduction is at[2] (I assume). Note that this information is still in the article as the first paragraph of the first section Diatonic_function#Diatonic_functions_of_notes. Hyacinth 13:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Equivalency vs equivalence

Is it common practice in musical theory to use e.g. "transpositional equivalency" instead of "transpositional equivalence", or even better "equivalence under transposition" or similar? Otherwise it looks like we want to use pompous terms only because they look cool... PizzaMargherita 08:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Please tone down your language. Calling the article introduction "repulsive" is amusingly over the top. Calling contributors pompous is inappropriate. Please see: Wikipedia:No personal attacks ("Comment on content, not on the contributor"). Hyacinth 13:45, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
"Repulsive" as in repelling readers who don't already know the subject. "Exoteric", if you prefer.
"Pompous" was also not referred to any contributor, but to content. PizzaMargherita 13:59, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Ah, repulsive may make sense, though this puts this article in league with almost any on a technical or scientific subject. Hyacinth 14:43, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what is "pompous" about adverbs or the suffix "-ly". Perhaps the grammar is incorrect, but this is hardly pompous. Lastly the purpose of phrasing it that way on this page is that Transpositional equivalency redirects to Transposition (music) while Transpositional equivalence didn't (until just now). Hyacinth 12:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

  • "Generally speaking, the most important notes are the members of the tonic triad: the tonic, the mediant and the dominant. All other notes are understood to have some relation to those notes. The leading tone, for example, the seventh scale degree, has a significance of being a half-step below the tonic and has a tendency to resolve there. The fourth scale degree, the subdominant, has a tendency to resolve to the third degree, the mediant."

I removed the above paragraph as I would argue the most important notes are the tonic, dominant, and subdominant and that, for example, the fourth scale degree relates more importantly and directly to the tonic as the subdominant than to the mediant as an upper leading tone. Hyacinth 12:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Baffling

I find the last sentence of the passage quoted below quite baffling. What does it mean?

  • 'Functions in the minor mode

In the US the minor mode or scale is considered a variant of the major, while in German theory it is often considered, per Riemann, the inversion of the major. In the late eighteenth-early nineteenth centuries a large amount of symmetrical chords and relations known as "dualistic" harmony. The root of a major chord is its bass note in first inversion or normal form at the bottom of a third and fifth, but, symmetrically, the root of a major chord is the US fifth of a first inversion minor chord, and the US root is the "fifth".' yoyo 11:14, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

In addition, the second sentence in the quote (starting "In the late eighteenth-early nineteenth centuries") has no main verb, which makes it less than perspicuous. Tom Duff 20:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German and US systems

For the love of God, separate the explanations of the German and US systems. They shouldn't be constantly compared as they're being explained. Explain each, and then compare. I already know about this stuff and I can't even follow some parts.

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 20:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking. I don't know this stuff, and I can't follow anything trying to keep track of both systems at the same time. --24.59.119.198 22:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vincent D'Indy

Is there an English translation of the 1903 work of D'Indy here referenced, or is this the French? - User:Lself 23:36, 2 August 2006

[edit] Diatonic and chromatic

The article uses the term "diatonic" extensively, but without adequate explanation. This term, along with "chromatic", is the cause of serious uncertainties at several other Wikipedia articles, and in the broader literature. Some of us thought that both terms needed special coverage, so we started up a new article: Diatonic and chromatic. Why not have a look, and join the discussion? Be ready to have comfortable assumptions challenged! – Noetica♬♩ Talk 22:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tonic Counter Parallel

Dear all, I tried to edit the section "Diatonic functions of notes and chords" but it was reverted.

Supertonic ii Subdominant parallel/Tonic counter parallel Sp/tKp

the ii chord (supertonic) is NOT a tonic counter parallel. From what I understand, a parallel or counterparallel must be a 3rd away from the reference chord, and the supertonic is not a 3rd away from the tonic. Please let me know if this is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Microcosmmm (talk • contribs) 01:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Microcosmmm (talk) 01:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Providing an Wikipedia:Edit summary in the future may help prevent your edits from being undone. If you check the counter parallel article it disagrees with you in regards to minor keys, though it lacks sources. Do you have a source you can cite? Hyacinth (talk) 03:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

ok, I read the counter parallel page very carefully. It does not explicitly state that the ii chord in either a major or minor key is a tonic counter parallel. I'm only seeing it as a subdominant parallel - which makes sense to me. I only have an internet source to site, http://cazoo.org/music/harmony.html it's probably not the most credible thing on earth, but it makes sense to me. Now, I have read in jazz theory, that a ii chord can substitute a I chord (particularly in the chord progression John Coltrane made famous, starting with a I in "Giant Steps" and a ii in the tune Countdown http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltrane_changes). Maybe that's what y'all mean? I'd love to see an example in standard western classical music. I find it to be more "modal" than "tonal" though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Microcosmmm (talk • contribs) 05:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Microcosmmm (talk) 05:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Major and minor are different. According to counter parallel, the counter parallel of the tonic in major is iii while the counter parallel differs in minor, being ii. Hyacinth (talk) 08:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

to quote the article: "In a minor key the intervals are reversed: the tonic parallel (e.g. Eb in Cm) is a minor third above, and the counter parallel (e.g. Ab in Cm) is a major third below. Both the parallel and the counter parallel have two notes in common with the tonic (Am and C share C & E; Em and C share E & G)."

I still don't see the ii chord being a tonic counter parallel. It doesn't share any notes with the tonic - and the article says that the bIV chord (the Ab in the key of Cm), not the ii chord, is the tonic counterparallel in minor. Please directly quote where the ii chord in major or minor is the tonic counterparallel.Microcosmmm (talk) 18:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right, I confused sP and Sp. Thanks. Hyacinth (talk) 05:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)