Talk:Dialects of Calabria

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I highly contest this categorization of Calabrese as a distinct language. As a student of Romance Philology and Linguistics, there is no significant proof that Calabrese is a unified language. Calabria is a region in southern Italy, yes, but it does not necessarily equate being a language as well. The historical information shows that much of southern Calabria was influenced in the same ways as Sicily, while northern Calabria has more in common with greater Naples. Calabria was part of the Two Sicilies, with Sicily (the island), and greater Naples the bifurcated hubs of the former kingdom. Linguistically speaking, the region of Calabria can be divided north to south in terms of its various dialects. The southern Calabrian dialects are virtually identical to the Messinese dialect of Sicily, and the Salentine dialect in peninsular Puglia. The northern Calabrian dialects are virtually identical to those of Lucano, Campania, and greater Naples. For these reasons, the dialects of Calabrian cannot be grouped together as a consistent language. Instead, southern dialects make up the language of what some call "Extreme Meredional" or simply "Sicilian," while the northern dialects make up the language of what some call "Intermediate Meredional" or simply "Neapolitan." Again, these reasons are geographical, historical, and aboveall, linguistic.

If one visits Ethnologue, they will at times see a bifurcated grouping of "Neapolitan-Calabrian" but this is not exactly correct. This is done because northern Calabrian is very similar to Neapolitan, and some argue that Calabrian should retain its own identity, at least in name sake. Unfortunately, linguistics is a science, and Calabria is a region with very different dialects. One cannot simply speak of a "Calabrian" language when the region's dialects are so different. Again, region does not always equal dialect.

I leave you with the following links on the various languages of Italy, including maps and the official Ethnologue linguistic classifications: http://www.italica.rai.it/principali/lingua/bruni/mappe/mappe/f_dialetti.htm (interactive map of Italy with the linguistic classifications, researched in the 1920s and most recently revisited in 1977 with the publication of the "Carta dei dialetti." See here that southern Calabrian is classified in the group of extreme southern dialects, referred to as 'Sicilian', while northern Calabrese is classified in the intermediate southern group of dialects, referred to as 'Neapolitan.'

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=nap Neapolitan-Calabrese group of dialects - which again is not accurate. There is no hybrid Calabrese dialect, instead the 'region' of Calabria is made up of several 'dialects' which pertain to two different language groups, "Neapolitan" and "Sicilian."

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=scn The Sicilian group of dialects. Pay attention that this group is sometimes called "Sicilian-Calabrese" but this, like the "Neapolitan-Calabrese" category is inaccurate. Unfortunately, the region of Calabria is geographically between two larger linguistic groups, and because the Calabrese dialects are so divergent from each other, there is no universial Calabrese language, and therefore it is bifurcated into the other two larger groups of Sicilian and Neapolitan. Even in the peninsular portion of the region of Puglia, that dialect "Salentine" is also part of the Sicilian group, while northern Pugliese is considered a dialect of Italian, according to Ethnologue. But linguistically speaking, this is also incorrect, as you saw with the first weblink (map) above. The reasons for considering northern Pugliese as Italian instead of Neapolitan are of political reasons, and ignorance.

http://www.linguasiciliana.org/articuli_file/puglisi.HTM Finally, here is an essay on the Italian 'languages' or 'dialects.' This essay was written by a Calabrese linguist who regularly participates in a Sicilian language organization. Written in Sicilian, this Calabrese discusses how and why the languages of Italy are classified as such, and also includes much information on his home region of Calabria and why for many different reasons is divided into two different linguistic classifications, none of which are centered around the region of Calabria. He also writes of the different Pugliese dialects, the southern being part of Sicilian, and the northern being part of the Neapolitan group, and not the Italian group as erroneously printed in Ethnologue.

I have no qualms against the people or region of Calabria. Its various dialects are enchanting and bold, but as a researcher, I cannot help but argue against the classification of Calabrese as a single Romance language. All of the evidence points against this idea. I hope that I may have enlightened some of you, and cleared up any previous misconceptions about this topic.

Thank you.

I may be reached at VingenzoTM@yahoo.com for further questions

Thank you for your extensive explanation, Vinginzu. Wikipedia is a source that is changing and growing due to the knowledge of its users. It sounds like there is enough to be said about language in Calabria that this article should remain separate, but perhaps the title of the article could be changed. What would you suggest? Calabrian dialects? Calabrian linguistic issues? Is there anything comparable at Category:Languages_of_Italy? It would be best if you could first discuss this with the other contributors to this article, as I'm not a linguist; see the article history. The primary contributor seems to be E. abu Filumena; I have left a message on that talk page about your note here (as s/he may not have the page watched) to let them know you'd like to discuss it.

You might also look at discussing the issues on the talk pages at Italian dialects and List of Languages of Italy, and talking to some of the contributors there, such as User:Sarcelles, User:Man vyi, User: Falphin, User:Decius, and perhaps especially User:Espo111, who was the contributor who added: "However, to call these languages dialects is misleading. Many evolved along the same path modern Italian did and have literary traditions of their own. They also have their own grammar and lexicon."

I'm sure that calm discussion among you will find the best way to present this information to linguists, linguophiles, and the general public. Good luck! — Catherine\^talk 17:10, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Italian Wikipedia says: "Il dialetto calabrese (u ddjalettu calabbrisi) è di tipo siciliano nella parte centro-meridionale della Calabria e di tipo napoletano nell'estrema parte settentrionale".

As a native Calabrian speaker, I agree with this statement but it is contradictory. It refers to the "Sicilian type" in the centre-south, and "Neopolitan type" in the extreme north. In fact, this is not clear cut either, as in much of the central part there are influences from both sides. That would support the view currently taken on the English version of the article.

I've added back the missing history and removed the funny redirects. The main article is now Calabrian languages. Mariokempes 23:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)