Talk:Devi Mahatmya

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Contents

[edit] Major revision planned

so far so good... (Ekabhishek 06:19, 23 October 2007 (UTC))

I am in the process of revising this entire article based on original sources.--Sankarrukku 11:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I will endeavor to complete additions and expansions as soon as possible. Welcome any comments and suggestions for improvement!

Thanks.

--Sankarrukku 14:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I am editing the outline of the chapters. The present outline sourced from other web sites is incorrect. For example chapter 11 the Narayani Sthudhi was referred to as Narayani, wife of Vishnu. This is wrong. From the descriptions as having a garland of skulls and Chamunda, it should have been obvious that the Goddess referred to is not the consort of Vishnu.

Thanks.

--Sankarrukku 13:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The revision is over. Thanks to Redtigerxyz for providing additional content and tuning the article. It may still require fine tuning. --Sankarrukku 11:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

With a start class rating it requires .... --Sankarrukku 18:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please read this

I know Devi Māhātmya. That is all. I would welcome discussions before changing the contents. Thank you. --Sankarrukku 13:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not worthy of Lead

The Devi Māhātmya is believed to have crystallized in its present form during the 9th-10th century, and is believed to be originally authored by rishi Markandeya. However, the original Markandeya Purana text is much older, and one of the verses in the Devi Mahatmya appears in an inscription (dated 608) on the Dadhimatimata temple in the former kingdom of Jodhpur.

The date contradicts referenced date of 400-500CE.--Redtigerxyz 05:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

That was part of the existing page which I did not want to take out.--Sankarrukku 08:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

Only quotable imporatant sentences should be highlighted not eveything.--Redtigerxyz 06:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The episodes are straight quotes.--Sankarrukku 08:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing

The four Hymns are:

  • Sakradi-stuti (Chapter 4): "having Indra (Sakra) as first (adi)" ????

It is an explanation of the name Sakradi--Sankarrukku 12:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It's confusing so removing "(Sakra) as first (adi)" part.--Redtigerxyz 12:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

* The "Ya Devi" Hymn also known as Aparajita-stuti or Tantrik Devi Suktam (Chapter 5): "they repair to Mount Himavan" ????

What does this mean???--Redtigerxyz 06:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

In what context liturgy is used ???--Redtigerxyz 06:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Answered.--Sankarrukku 12:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

*Durga Saptasloki - Amba Studi ??? what is it/??

This is also known as Amba Studi--Sankarrukku 12:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Devi-kavacham - "This Kavacham (armour) protects the reader in all parts of his body, in all places and in all difficulties."??????

This is more than a simple armour. Individual parts of the body are mentioned with separate Devis. All directions and all difficulties are enumerated.--Sankarrukku 13:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Ratri Suktam (Vedic) -

"Ratri means She who fulfills our prayers".[1] Comm: Ratri means 'night' in Sanskrit, the language the text is in. The meaning quoted defies Sanskrit.

--Redtigerxyz 06:24, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Ratri is a Hindu Vedic Goddess. See Ratri--Sankarrukku 12:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

She is goddess of the night. "Ratri means She who fulfills our prayers". is wrong.--Redtigerxyz 12:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Pradhana Rahasyam - mula Prakrti??? what is it

In Sankhya Philosophy both the terms mula Prakrti and Prakrti are used. See http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/sankhya.htm#H2 --Sankarrukku 12:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Vaikritika Rahasyam - "Godhead beyond change subjected itself to change",

This is Sankhya Philosophy. See http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/sankhya.htm#H2 --Sankarrukku 12:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Murti Rahasyam - The incarnations, the avatāra murtis ??? incarnations are avatars . what are avatāra murtis????

First the incarnations are mentioned. Then details of the images with number of arms, weapons carried etc. are given. The Murti at Sapthashringi is as per the details given regarding Maha Lakshmi here. (Eighteen arms and weapons in each arm).--Sankarrukku 13:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Devi Suktam (Rig Vedoktam) - Vak, who identifies herself as "Brahma Sakti", . She is verily "Brahmasvarupini"[2] ?????

I will include the nearest translation of the term.--Sankarrukku 13:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Devi Suktam (Tantrik) - The hymn in chapter 5 is treated as Tantrik Devi Suktam.[3]

Wording changed.

--Redtigerxyz 06:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC).

Wording changed. --Sankarrukku 12:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

This is an esoteric text. Most of the queries you have raised are regarding straight quotes. (should have marked them as such). The answer will be about interpretations of Sankhya philosophy and Sanskrit terminology.

I will answer in a week or so. Please do not delete anything.--Sankarrukku 09:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The article should be understood by any non-Hindu or a person who does not understand Indian languages too.--Redtigerxyz 12:43, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

This is the religious text where correct interpretations are very important.--Sankarrukku 13:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Quoting from WP:PERFECT:

  • is understandable; it is clearly expressed for both experts and non-experts in appropriate detail, and thoroughly explores and explains the subject.
  • is nearly self-contained; it includes essential information and terminology, and is comprehensible by itself, without requiring significant reading of other articles. --Redtigerxyz 13:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sapthashringi Devi

The deity in Sapthashringi is Ashtadasabuja (eighteen armed) Mahalakshmi (Chandi). She is known locally as Sapthashringi Devi. Please see http://www.nashik.com/travel/shirdi.html where she is referred to as Mahisha Mardini. You can check with the priest there or any local Saktha Tantrik.

I will answer your other queries in a week or so.

Please do not delete anything till then. Thank you. --Sankarrukku 08:43, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Vani is believed to be a half shakti peeth. The mahalaxmi is of Kolhapur.--Redtigerxyz 10:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Also Durga is already present. This image is overcrowding the space.--Redtigerxyz 10:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Durga is an overused image. I know all about Sapthashringi Maa. Sage Markhendeya is supposed to have written the Markhendaya Purana in Sapthashringi hills. I have an eighteen armed bronze idol of her. I will be uploading more relevant images later.--Sankarrukku 12:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand why you are removing the image. Because you do not know or understand that does not mean it is wrong.--Sankarrukku 13:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I had removed it only once. Second time i just shifted it.--Redtigerxyz 13:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Liturgy

Liturgy in religion, may refer to, or include, an elaborate formal ritual. See Liturgy. In this case the Appendages are part of the formal ritual reading.--Sankarrukku 10:24, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I checked the dictionary. Wouldn't Appendages be more appropriate.--Redtigerxyz 10:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The term "repair to"

The meaning is - [verb] move, travel, or proceed toward some place; "He repaired to his cabin in the woods" http://www.elook.org/dictionary/repair.html--Sankarrukku 10:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I know. "repair to" is old-fashioned english. Please use a more revalent verb. This is want i want.--Redtigerxyz 10:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology

The terminology used should be correct. Indra is the first among the Devas. Not their leader. That is why the term "adi". Again "repair" is used as proceeding in despair. The subtility and nuances of both Sanskrit and English has to be understood. --Sankarrukku 12:58, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Devi Mahatmya in popular tradition

I have deleted the reference to persons who wrote the commentaries. Sri Ramakrishna never wrote a commentary on this. Swami Sivananda and Swami Satyananda Saraswati wrote commentaries which are some of the sources. Mentioning anyone from any region of India will lead to a controversy, as commentaries have been written in almost all languages like Tamil, Bengali, Marathi, and Hindi. Everyone swears by a different commentary depending on the region.

Many people are considered saints by their followers.

Thanks.--Sankarrukku 07:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

well, this should be explained, then. You should add a paragraph to the effect that "Everyone swears by a different commentary depending on the region" rather than removing references to commentaries. --dab (𒁳) 07:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The wording of the undone portion was

"Several saints and scholars have done commentaries on the metaphysical interpretations of this text, like Ramakrishna, the Paramacharyal of Kanchi, the Sringeri Acaryals, Venkatesa Battar and several others."

The problem is when you mention some people and omit some very prominent others like Ramana Maharishi, Aurobindo and a host of others and give prominence to orthodox sectarian religious heads. So do we want everyone to add the name of his/her favorite saint/scholar here?--Sankarrukku 09:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please note while tweaking the article or making any changes

Though the figure of Shiva is known in Devī Māhātmya the goddess bears no special relationship to him. In fact she bears no special relationship with anyone other than her devotees. While each God has a Sakti, Devī Māhātmya avoids characterizing such forms as consorts, for the Goddess is Shakti, power itself beyond the realm of being a consort to anyone. Devī Māhātmya does not know the conceptualization that Sakti is feminine and its possessor or vehicle masculine, for as it is seen, the Goddess herself can put forth a Sakti.

None of the forms of the Goddess are consorts of any God. Mahakali is not Kali (consort of Siva), Mahalakshmi is not Lakshmi (consort of Vishnu), and Mahasaraswati is not Saraswati (consort of Brahma).

Please do not link to the articles of these Devis.

Again Chandi is not exactly the popular Durga since she is not the consort of any God

Thank you.

--Sankarrukku 16:18, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Sankarrukku, two things -
  1. a new discussion topic always goes below the existent ones as Talk guidelines. Press + sign, besides "edit the page" to start new discussion.
  2. The Mahakali form is discussed in Kali article. The iconography of Kali and Mahakali is similar with both of them standing on Shiva , their tongues displayed , with skulls and serpents around.--Redtigerxyz 13:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Please see the image. The Dhyana sloka is "Ghatkam Chakra gadeshu ...". Please see what is quoted above. Mahakali in Devi Mahatmya is not the consort of any one.--Sankarrukku 14:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

This Mahakali is "Wielding in her hand the sword, discuss, mace, arrow, bow, iron club, trident, sling, human head, and conch, she has three eyes and ornaments decked on all her limbs. She shines like a blue stone and has ten faces and ten feet. That Mahakali I worship, whom the lotus born Brahma lauded in order to slay Madhu and Kaitaba when Hari was asleep. -S. Sankaranarayanan. Devi Mahatmya.

You can find the image as per this sloka in the Kolhapur Mahalakshmi temple. That temple has three images of Mahakali, Mahalakshmi and Mahasaraswati of Devi Mahatmya. The Mahalakshmi temple in Mumbai has also the three Goddesses. But popular misconception and the reduction in the influence of pure Sakthism has made these temples into Lakshmi temples..--Sankarrukku 14:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I checked some net books. The Mahakali of The Devi Mahatmya seems to refer to Mahamaya. The Mahalaxmi to Mahishasura mardini but I also found references of them intrepreted as greater forms of the three goddesses in other ref like Mahakali and Kolhapur Mahalakshmi. The ten headed , ten legged, 10 armed Mahakali, standing on Shiva (a image in this form was part of Kali article, but was recently deleted) is assumed to greator form of Kali due to maybe "popular misconception". WP should have both the views the popular view and expert view.--Redtigerxyz 12:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
The diety of Kolhapur Mahalakshmi temple is considered "Lakshmi" , thats why the Tirupati Balaji Temple sends a saree for the goddess every Navaratri. She is considered the first wife of Vishnu-Balaji; who was angry with Vishnu and left Vaikunth heading for earth. Many vendors at the temple also sell combined portaits of Mahalakshmi and Balaji together.--Redtigerxyz 12:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
the Action of Sankarrukku is against Wikipedia:Build the web policy. I request him/her to create the pages and accept the links temporarily til the pages are called as the non-experts will find it difficult to identify the terms Chandi, Mahakali ,Mahalakshmi is not Lakshmi ( and Mahasaraswati. Please retain the links til appropiate pages are not created.--Redtigerxyz 12:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The easiest way is to put in new sections in the Kali, Lakshmi and Saraswati articles about Mahakali, Mahalakshmi and Mahasaraswati of Devi Mahatmya. I have done it in Kali page where it needed only some tweaking.

About Candi she is the folk Deity of Bengal and Orissa. There are a number of forms of her. There should be an article.

Thanks.--Sankarrukku 12:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does this need further expansion?

Is this article of sufficient length or should it be expanded further? Any suggestions for expansion? Thanks.--Sankarrukku 03:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems Lead

Too many paras : not in accordance with WP:LEAD. Ambigious entences like "The four hymns are considered sweet" - which four hymns??? Their mention first in the article is in the Contents part. So the sentence belongs there. I will try to improve by shifting some matter elsewhere in the article.--Redtigerxyz 14:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)