Talk:Developmental dyspraxia
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[edit] I
I have just created the dyspraxia page, and it is my first contribution. I'd like some help with making sure it fits in with the concept of wikipedia, and that it is NPOV enough! Thanks - PurpleHeather 22:36, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The only NPOV problem I see with the page is the mention of the UK. I'm not quite sure what is meant by "support agencies" is this context, but I doubt they only exist in the UK, and if there aren't any mentions of UK-specific agencies then there's no reason to mention the UK. I'm not going to change it myself since I have no knowledge of the subject and don't know what the intended meaning was, so what I put in place might not be accurate. Isomorphic 05:28, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Theres no intro paragraph, but other than that its OK.
Oh, and as goes support agencies, they could easily be UK only - its not even recognised as existing in the Republic of Ireland. I've got some level of dyspraxia, but as it "doesn't exist", its ingored by schools, etc/ Kiand 17:45, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Further comment - I wonder if there's any scope for linking to the prosopagnosia entry as I feel there may be a connection between prosopagnosia and dyspraxia.
[edit] Support Agencies, Uk and Ireland
Sorry if this is covered in article, I am attempting to share knowledge with Kiand
I am a 55 y.o. male who discovered dyspraxia about 5 years ago. Sometimes referred to as DCD for Development Coordination disorder. There is Dyspraxia Foundation in UK but they tend to concentrate on kids and families. Because of tremendous overlap with other related conditions there are some multi ND (neuro diverse) organiasations for adults. I do not know about Ireland. In UK there is D.A.N.D.A. (I can never remember what the iniytials actually stand for but they have a web page. there are also about 300 or more of these characters in a Yahoo Discussion Board that has links and info for things all round the world and some very knowledgeable members. I'll attempt to post a link, I regret I have yet to understand the Wiki way of linking but in it's raw form, cut and pasted, try going to http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Dyspraxia as a start. It is a members only site but the moderators usually deal with applications in a day or so, sometimes in hours ( I used to be one!)
[edit] Citations and clean-up needed
"In spite of this, Dyspraxics are usually of average or above-average intelligence." - phrases like there are around the article and need citations. This one is particularly posionous because it encourages the view that dyspraxia isn't a actual disability, merely somthing educational researchers made up as an excuse. It also ignores the large amount of undiagnosed dyspraxics that were ignored because they didn't have the right background for it to be noticed 85.210.8.223 21:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. Dyspraxia is a SpLD (specific learning difficulty) so it does not affect overall IQ &/or ability, it just affects particular aspects of development. In my family, unusually high IQ & dyspraxia are associated - nearly everyone with dyspraxia in my family also has a postgraduate degree. The view that dyspraxia is associated with below-average intelligence is potentially damaging in two ways - it can prevent people who are otherwise obviously able from obtaining appropriate help, and it can mean that people diagnosed with dyspraxia are treated as globally learning-disabled when they can be very able in other areas.
(PLEASE sign your edits with 4 tildes so its easy to see who edited what) I deleted the quote anyway, because I couldn't find any formal text from the official sources that could back it up. I was using it as an example of original research that seems dominant in that section of the entry. I am trying to fix this by finding citations for the parts that do have basis in psychological study. Arthmelow 01:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
"Madeline Portwood makes the distinction that dyspraxia is not due to a general medical condition, but that it may be due to immature neuron development." who is Madeline Portwood? 85.210.8.223 19:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Madeleine Portwood: Specialist senior educational psychologist working for Durham County Council Educational Psychological Service. Specialises in children with emotional and behavioural disorders as well as 'Early Years' (pre 5)child development. Previous trustee of the Dyspraxia Foundation.
I've started by marking out the comments that need citations. I know some of it is on the dyspraxia foundation website or other places, and I also think some of it smacks of original research, and some of it I experience as a dyspraxic myself, but original research is not part of wikipedia, so we either need to find a proper source, or it has to go. 85.210.8.223 19:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The "Developmental Profiles" needs to be changed so it emphasises that dyspraxia is a life long disorder, not merely a childhood one. Possibly have a profile then have a heading about the typical symptoms during childhood?85.210.8.223 19:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
DSM & ICD-10 have it down as a 'developmental disorder' so problems have to be apparent during childhood to obtain a diagnosis. However, I agree - not enough emphasis is given to the fact that dyspraxic children grow up to be dyspraxic adults.
"Role of support agencies Within the United Kingdom there are several agencies that are able to support children with dyspraxia. They may provide reports on the child’s progress" We possibly need to explain that outside the UK dyspraxia is often not seen wholeistically and is diagnosed as DCD, or Developmental Coordination Disorder, and in some of Europe it is called DAMP (Deficits in Attention, Motor Control and Perception) and is sometimes used to describe people who have signs of both DCD and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). Possibly have DCD link to the dyspraxia page and explain that DCD is almost a subset of dyspraxia, focusing mainly on the physical side of things? 85.210.8.223 19:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
DAMP is also diagnosed in the UK - theoretically it is broader, practically there's very little difference except that DAMP overlaps more with ADHD so Ritalin is prescribed more often.
I have searched for citation for the "general diffuculties" section, and have been unsuccessful, but can confirm it to be mainly true (i am dyspraxic myself) so im sure there will be a mention someware --Kitten 21:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that wikipedia has a "no original research" policy: so we *need* to find citations for the statements, even if we do agree that they are true. I think there are tonnes in the links, we just need to find them :-) Arthmelow 21:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Is linking the Dyspraxia foundation's symptoms page enough? Most of the things which are on here as unverified are also on there. Also, I agree that there needs to be more reference to the fact that it's a life long disorder. Development Dyspraxia (also known as Development Coordination Disorder) is different to Acquired Dyspraxia. "Developmental Dyspraxia (D.D.) is different from Acquired Dyspraxia (A.D.) in that there is no memory of Praxis for the system to recall. as treatment is given and Praxis learnt, it builds developmentally, increasing the amount and quality of actions, the brain affected in D.D. is immature, where that in A.D. has already matured, so children with Developmental Dyspraxia have no neurological memory of Praxis to work towards." - http://www.dyspraxia.org.nz/what_is.htm 89.240.145.183 16:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
It is imporant to note that dyspraxia is experienced by individuals and not organisations- this means that symptoms do not need to be catagorised to be real making references less important.
In addition some these refernces are comprehensive and simple searching on sites like http://www.dyspraxiafoundation.org.uk/ will reference many things marked as citation needed
We need to remember that life is not about catagorisation nor about reaching perfection. The nature of dyspraxia means that it is imposible to define- a simple difference in the functioning of the brain may cause a wide spectrum of symptoms.
People with dyspraxia may actually suffer different 'disorders' in reality but all be clasified as dyspraxia. Because of this the symptoms noticed may not have 'citations', there is a diference between original research into an unknown world of opinion and an original fact.
Right now I am writing this when I should be asleep, right now my brian is unable to shut of, and by now I should have finished work I was meant to do. This will remain imposible to define but what I have is labeled dyspraxia. Since we cannot understand the make-up of the brain we cannot define dyspraxia- and because of this we cannot create citations.
The removal of information due to a lack of citations would do more damage than good. The drive for non-original research defeats the purpose of having a wiki and could be the demise of wikipedia. (unsigned comment)
My previous comment covers it. We follow NOR policy or it goes. This page is muddled enough as it is. And yay for the person who suggested two articles for acquired dyspraxia and DCD: excellent idea! Arthmelow 13:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I've cleaned up the 'general difficulties' bit, i've added an introductory bit and made some small ammendments- I thought that the article implied that all dyspraxics were like that which is simply false, so i've tweaked it a little to make Dyspraxia more open ended. --Mikeoman 20:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I read this "Though unlike many on the autistic spectrum Dyspraxics may wish to live alongside others they often find it difficult. They can be messy and cluttered with a tendancy to outburst including agression, 'good and bad days' (mood swings) and difficulty in understanding the meaning of everyday interactions within a household" although this can be true in some cases I think again it implies it happens to everyone- I think it is the subject of debate as to whether the anger is a neurological thing or is it caused by the frustration of the dyspraxia itself.--Mikeoman 20:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
In the first paragraph - it says "failure!" - that's not right...
The statement "and has been believed to affect 8% to 10% of all children" is contested by other sources [1] and the wording of the statement also implies it is no longer believed to be true. 84.13.130.217 12:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Limited geographic scope
I think this article has a huge bias towards the UK in general.--HisSpaceResearch 00:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes this is true. Not really sure what to do to fix it currently. Arthmelow 22:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC) Thinking about it, the last "role of support agencies" is the main bit that needs globalisation. The rest isn't as bad Arthmelow 22:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I have found a few US based links which may help matters. It seems that Apraxia is the more standard name in the states, although a few use the term "dyspraxia". The main problem seems to be that it is under the NVLD umbrella there Arthmelow 19:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Ignore previous comment, have been put right! Have removed the strongly UK-based section of the article Arthmelow 17:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Merge with Apraxia
It seems that "apraxia" is more prevalant in the United States and "dyspraxia" is more prevalent in the UK, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand. Discussion over how and if we do it below please. Arthmelow 20:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
RE: Merge with Apraxia: Please don't! Apraxia is a symptom, rather than a specific condition, and can be defined as an inabilty to plan and sequence motor tasks (one definition - others are simlar). Apraxia may been in all sort of different conditions - inlcuding stroke and dementia. The "A-" prefix before the 'praxia' bit mean 'absence of'. The same actually applies to the term 'dyspraxia' - i.e. the word refers to a symptom caused by many things, rather than a specifc condition. The 'dys' in dysprxia means disordered or dysfunctional (as opposed to absent. Agruably the dyspraxia page itself should probably be relabelled "Development co-ordination disorder" (or whatever term you prefer) since it is a specific disease / syndrome that is being written about here - rather than just the the symptom 'dyspraxia'. In practice the word 'dyspraxia' is not often used in its strict sense (i.e. to describe a milder version of apraxia), which is why its has been able to be used as a label for 'development coordination disorder'. Don't confuse diseases with symptoms. (Jon, Lecturer in Medicine, UK)
I'm having difficulty finding sources: I may have jumped the gun a bit on the 50th page of google results. Merge tags are removed, and thank you if you did the introduction rewrite! Arthmelow 17:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Apraxia is usually 'cannot do something', Dyspraxia is 'have problems. Introduction rewrite covers it! 89.240.145.183 15:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Generalizations
Being dyspraxic myself, I read this article and I think that it does't really give a lot of scope, each case is individual and not every one suffers the same symptoms, I personally don't suffer from the physiological stuff anymore- I can play the guitar, go to the gym, type and write fairly neatly. The page doesn't speak about Occupational Therapy, Physiotherapy, Speech and language therapy, the role of dyspraxia in schools- what support is available- LSAs, the role tiredness can play on a kid because the bones grow faster than the muscles, we need to make ammendments to the treatment of dyspraxia because the article implies that Dyspraxia is a black hole; that the condition cannot be improved- which is simply untrue. On a side note the article at the beggining distinguishes a difference between acquired dyspraxia and developental dyspraxia, however the article ceases to mention the acquired dyspraxia later--Mikeoman 21:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Hit the nail on the head!! We need two pages, one for aquired and one for birth. Mike's on to something (unsigned comment)
- agree - DCD and dyspraxia are technically two different things. It seems that in the UK the two are used interchangably because it sounds like "dyslexia". Arthmelow 13:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Technically speaking, and often under many legal conditions, among professionals in the United States the term apraxia is used by medical doctors. The term dyspraxia is used by other professionals in the field, such as PTs and OTs, et al. Although persons in this latter group may often have a doctorate in their chosen expertise, one would have to have an actual degree in medicine to diagnose what is considered in the U.S. a medical condition, i.e. apraxia, as it were. For example, this distinction is made when evaluations, reports, etc. from different sources are necessary for a person to receive services related to their condition, such as a child in school. Subjectively and elsewise, it is not unusual for the two terms to be interchanged, but they boil down to the same neurological condition/symptom, or however one wants to argue that point. [Mimmy88 23:50, July 10, 2007]
[edit] Possible navigation template
Hi, folks.
Recently I have seen a number of article series on related topics that have implemented a very nice navigation box that makes it easy for users to see and link to closely related topics. Take a look at Judaism and Psychology for examples.
I'd like to propose doing something like this for the set of disorders that frequenty co-occur --- dyspraxia, dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, etc -- and I've put together a strawman navigation box so we have something to look at and consider.
A group of editors working on the Dyslexia topic have already a navigation box there, so you can take a look there and see what it looks like. This particular navigation box is admittedly very specific to dyslexia, and I'm certain there would need to be changes made to make it useful for the dyspraxia topic.
Please take a look and see what you think.
Best,
Rosmoran 00:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] 'general difficulties'
I see a great flaw in the section- a lot of the stuff that is under this great 'general difficulties' section when it can go under so sections above, but to do this we also need a little subsection to describe the more psychological elements of dyspraxia, I think 'cognitive effects' could be appropriate but i'm unsure whether it's appropriate to call it that, we do need a section on the psychological stuff, for example the problems we face when writing academic essays and so forth or the thinking section, what do you all think?--Mikeoman 09:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] External links
I have removed the chat board links several times now. I want to make sure that you understand that I'm not removing it by accident. It doesn't matter how helpful your chat room is, or that you think patients will never find your group without a Wikipedia link, or anything else. What matters is that Wikipedia's policies specifically exclude links to groups like yours. The link was a clear violation of the external links policy.
If you don't like this policy, then you need to explain to that policy group that in your opinion, external links to patient support/disease discussion groups should be allowed. If you convince them to change the policy, then we can include the link. Until then, however, the link is disallowed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
