Talk:Devadasi/Archive 1

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Ms.Lawyer (Kama's), you should re-discover somebasic decency before defiling others

First of all, this is a discussion about the devadasi article. If you want to refer to other articles, or discuss some personal matters, you can do it on the relevant discussion pages.

Then, you have to learn some basic English: nobody, as far as I know, has ever mentioned Medha Hari as "devadasi".

Moreover, her web site is not commercial. She is a pure child, unlike your filthy Kama.

And she does have real relevance to the devadasi heritage, unlike your filthy commercial photos of Kama's masturbating and so on.

So, do stay away from it.

And, finally, wake up:

 originally, devadasis were celibate, and it is the filthy Britons like you who perverted our culture

Santap 10:07, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

so very interesting..Santap

I have been so foolish.. I really thought that Santap had a real and sincere problem about the Devadasi and was genuinely concerned about the issues etc...

It seems that Santap is involved with the website of Medha Hari [1] and has been involved in creating an wiki-entry for her which is basically a promotion of her and is linked to her commericial website. Then the Devadasi entry was used to highlight her and link to this medha hari puff piece.

So when the devadasi entry started to grow and take on issues that didn't have a fit with the Medha Hari promotion. Santap started to revert to the entry that basically highlighted her rather than discussed the Devadasi. I couldn't understand why Santap was going to that revert because it still contained references to the Devdadasi and prostitutes, however the entry is so simple it is not much more than a glorified link to Medha Hari The Medha Hari entry has been identified by others as an advertisement and spam but presently the entry stands and I don't have a particular problem with that, but I do resent attempts to manipulate the devadasi entry to keep her overly prominent as she is not even a Bharatnatyam master ..yet, and also manipulating the entry to sanitise the Devadasi in apparent keeping with her promotional interests.

I therefore find Santap's accusations that I was using the entry for self-promotion to be incredibly ironic in these circumstances.

Santap what is your connection with Medha Hari ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medha_Hari

It seems you have a connection with Medha Hari a modern Devadasi Dancer and is this why you want the Devadasi constructed devoid of any sexual aspect? Are you using wikipedia to promote her ? It seems you are running her commericial website. Why didn't you list any other of the comtemporary Devadasi Dancers, is it because I did that you took offence?

Have I accidently stepped on your dance promotion with my contributions and all of this is just about preserving the Devadasi image so it fits with her marketing. Now after all of the accusations that I was here for my self-interests I am rather annoyed.

Kama 08:48, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Santap how would you want to see the Devadasi described

As the entry you keep reverting to presents the Devadasi in the way you say you find offensive, because it does seem to present the Devadasi as "prostitutes". I was wondering how you think we could resolve the issue as that entry is also very simplistic and doesn't address many important issues.

I think we could create a section that looks at the various modern Devadasi practices and clearly say that many people find the association of the devadasi with prostitution to be deeply offensive and that this simplistic conflation oftens overshadows the contribution that some Devadasi make to the arts etc...

However we will need to address the issue that the number of accompliced elite dancers are very few, while there are tens of thousands of poor devadasi who are kept destitute and dependent on prostitution.

Let's discuss the issues rationally and stay away from taunts

I would argue that the Devadasi were not prostitutes but a varied group of talented women in the service of the Temples who often used sex in various sacred ways, as well as dance and song. In modern times they were "reconstructed" by the colonial powers and Indian modernists as "prostitutes" and the Devadasi became the "problem" rather than the repression and exploitation they were subjected to.

Furthermore I believe there has been an attempt to deconstruct parts of Devadasi culture and traditions, so that Devadasi song and dance has become high culture and has often been appropriated by Brahmin women as an art form, while the sexual traditions have been collasped into "prostitution" and subjected to repression.

So now what it means to be Devadasi is incredibly complicated, are the Devadasi an evil religion that abuses children and must be destroyed, are the Devadasi sex slaves who must be rescued, are the Devadasi continuing to evolve into new practices of old traditions, are the Devadasi representatives of the best aspects of Indian High Culture?

So it is a "fact" that many people think "poor" "low-caste" Devadasi are "bad" prostitutes, while "elite" "high-caste" Devadasi are "great" artistes and valued performers.

I think all of these voices need to be heard and examined. The voice of the poor and bad Devadasi is a valuable and important as the voice of the elite and great Devadasi and both have something to say about what it means to be a Devadasi today

Kama 08:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

You can sell Kama's masturbating photos but do not spread this "religion" here

Every attempt to describe Devadasis as prostitutes or porno stars is as offending to any Hindu as describing every Muslim as a terrorist.

Santap 06:15, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

This is not a place to bully and intimidate others

I do not promote myself on this site and it is not true to suggest I do. There is no commerical link to my site from this entry and I was very happy to agree to delete links that were to an interview with me on another website, and a link to a Devdadasi info page on my website. I have not reinstated those links and have no intention of doing so...I have no desire to break any wikipedia rules.

I am not a Bangla girl I am a Woman and attempts to infantilize me by suggesting I am a child are only prejudicial rhetoric intended to marginalize my voice.

Lurid statements might appear shocking but they are not proper arguments, it is just the same old story: the Devadasi are represented as a moral problem so they can be excluded and their voices crushed.

My work and life as a Devadasi takes place in London where I have to deal with a variety of religious and cultural paradoxes but how I resolve them is not a matter for discussion here.

Who and what I am and why is irrelevant to my contributions here, which are carefully crafted and properly referenced. The personal attacks do not speak to the validity of my contributions and so are just an attempt to create a social fog by which to obscure the real issue which is why should perfectly framed contributions be deleted just because of who I am?


Kama 16:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a platform to advertise prostitution and adult web sites

I would like to address this to Ms.Lawyer ('Kama' stated, 'I am often helped by a female law graduate to write more grammatically correct messages...')

Putting your commercial links on Wikipedia is clearly against its regulations, and you know it well.

Defiling someone else's religion is clearly against its regulations, and you know it well.

And, besides, as your web site does not contain more revealing photos of that poor Bangla girl, and instead points to 'Kama's page on www.adultwork.co.uk where one can read, 'Access to kama of kingston's Private Gallery costs 5.00 credit(s) for 1 Week', I wanted to ask Ms.Lawyer what made her write 'These are my naked bondage and submission photos'.

Do you think there are many idiots on Wikipedia who will believe that devadasis have ever had anything to do with 'naked bondage'?

Or 'I enjoy mastubating, I am rather shy but this excites me'! How religious! Then why doesn't every man in Kingston who does a five-knuckle shuffle proclaim himself a saint?

I understand that you are just exploiting - maybe in a non-violent way - that poor Bangla girl, but...

Geosammie 15:59, 18 July 2005 (UTC)


P.S. Why doesn't 'Kama's web site show her dancing and singing? Only an idiot will believe that Kama is anything more than a cheap prostitute.

Please do not resort to personal insults...

Kama 12:05, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

If every slut starts calling herself a Devadasi...

"Kama" dares to write "Being a Devadasi is my religion", yet on sex-kitten.net, she was a bit more straightforward about what made her "suddenly" "discover" her "religion": "While studying in London I had become sexually active and I decided in that my dealing with men I could commercialize many sexual exchanges while still enjoying genuine intimacy and friendship".

Thanks for being candid! Coming to London can make even the worst Chinese prostitute think that she can declare herself as a Taoist guru just because her skin is yellow :-)

JuliaJ 11:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I was born into a Devadasi family

The interview also makes it clear that I was born into a Devadasi family that had suffered because of the moralist prejudices against the Devadasi. In redicovering my Devadasi culture and traditions I have had to contend with a great deal of prejudice and even some pretty nasty personal attacks.

However I am a Devadasi and just because you don't like how I live a Devadasi lifestyle that is not an excuse to censor my contributions to the Devadasi page, that are properly referenced and quite balanced.

You are trying to use stigma to isolate and exclude me, this is a well-worn strategy of the bigot and moralist.

The issue is the academic validity of my contributions not my life-style choices. So please stay with the content of the entry and not my personal life.

prejudicial references to people by race and skin colour are neither amusing or helpful...

Kama 12:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC)


Please do not delete my comments from the Discussion board !!!

I am reposting my original posts, please let discussion post stand, censorship is not acceptable in proper discussion.

This is a brief note about the comments regarding me as a devadasi, I did not link to the commercial pages of my website but a page dealing specifically with the Devadasi that is on my website, I also consider the judgement that I am a pseudo-devadasi to be very presumptious. The devadasi have suffered terribly from non-devadasi appropriating the production of knowledge about the devadasi and as such I think that a link to an interview with someone who identifies as a devadasi is a useful link. I have now added a link to a site that has no connection with me and has no link to my business website, so I would be grateful if it could be left up.

 +   
 + The recent removal of the all of my contributions was vandalism, most were not controversial and were well referenced or sourced. If you have a problem with me including an interview with myself as a link then let's discuss the merits or demerits of the same. I personally think the voice of the Devadasi should be heard as much as academics or those who are politically committed to their destruction, and as the link is not to my website and does not contain a link to my personal website I think there is enough distance for it to be included. 
 +   
 + The other deletions were totally unjustified. 
 +   
 + Deleting contributions just because they were made by me is childish, most of my contributions were useful and allowed something of the complexities of the devadasi to be considered. 
 +   
 + If you want to make deletions that you consider advertising then lets take the matter to the board for arbitration because I can see how that link might be considered inappropriate however I find it strange that Atheist commentary links are left while the link that connects directly to the voice of a Devadasi is deleted. The Devadasi voice is what has been so missing from the discourse about the Devadasi and as such the link could be considered to be a useful resource. 



Notice to the managers of all 'sex workers', escorts, prostitutes, porno, etc ==

Please do not abuse Wikipedia to promote your sex business and smear the Devadasi's culture.

For the over-zealous "Christian editors" One more thing: if you continue to try to portray devadasis as prostitutes, I will similarly "contribute" to the Christian pages and will portray the Christian nuns as prostitutes, and all the Christian priests as either paedophiles or homosexuals.

Is that clear? Or do we have to smear each other's religions?

Santap 04:31, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Inflammatory language is a cheap device and is not proper argument

I do not use this site to promote my Devadasi life and I happily agreed to delete a link to an interview of mine, so that there would be no appearance of impropriety. I am committed to a Devadasi renaissance so I believe the various “truths” need to be unpacked and examined.

You ravings and threats are no way to conduct a proper consideration of our differences. You are just trying to slander me and threaten the editors into giving way to your prejudice.

You are hoping that by invoking the stigma attached to sex work to discredit me as a contributor, this is a very unpleasant strategy and shows that you have no interest in rational discussion.

Kama

This is a brief note about the comments regarding me as a devadasi, I did not link to the commercial pages of my website but a page dealing specifically with the Devadasi that is on my website, I also consider the judgement that I am a pseudo-devadasi to be very presumptious. The devadasi have suffered terribly from non-devadasi appropriating the production of knowledge about the devadasi and as such I think that a link to an interview with someone who identifies as a devadasi is a useful link. I have now added a link to a site that has no connection with me and has no link to my business website, so I would be grateful if it could be left up.

The recent removal of the all of my contributions was vandalism, most were not controversial and were well referenced or sourced. If you have a problem with me including an interview with myself as a link then let's discuss the merits or demerits of the same. I personally think the voice of the Devadasi should be heard as much as academics or those who are politically committed to their destruction, and as the link is not to my website and does not contain a link to my personal website I think there is enough distance for it to be included.

The other deletions were totally unjustified.

Deleting contributions just because they were made by me is childish, most of my contributions were useful and allowed something of the complexities of the devadasi to be considered.

If you want to make deletions that you consider advertising then lets take the matter to the board for arbitration because I can see how that link might be considered inappropriate however I find it strange that Atheist commentary links are left while the link that connects directly to the voice of a Devadasi is deleted. The Devadasi voice is what has been so missing from the discourse about the Devadasi and as such the link could be considered to be a useful resource.


==

Kama's sex service promoter is obviously is a highly educated man. If it were Kama who wrote all that rubbish, as well as "her" web sites, I would like to hear if she can speak any more English than an average village woman in Bangladesh.

I would indeed refrain from further reverts if "Princess Kama" could call me so that I would ask her a few questions regarding "her own" "research", record it and put the audio file on the web so everyone would have a chance to realize how many English words "princess kama" - not her "receptionist" has learnt so far.

P.S. To the guy who is running that sex business: please get out of Wikipedia. There is no place for your sex promotional efforts here. Yes, porno business is tough, but I assure you that you will have no business here at all. Wikipedia has certain rules for the folks like you.

Harassment is manifest

So you are deleting my posts not according to their merit but just because you have a problem with me, that is not acceptable. You repeat rumours and lies and do not add anything constructive to the Devadasi entry. This is vandalism. You cyberstalk me and take every opportunity to perpetrate your hate campaign.

I am studying in the UK so I am not the under-educated woman you would like to construct me as.

I do not promote my work here and you are only making that accusation to try and lend a legitimacy to your vandalism.


        =To whoever signs here as "Kama:=

You say that you do not promote your work here, but you placed direct links to your commercial web site, which is the obvious violation of Wikipedia's rules.

There is nothing on Kama's web sites that could be related to devadasi.

One more thing: for a prostitute like Kama who even never studied dance, her "fees" ("In-call 800.00 pounds"!) are exorbitant.

Santap 04:39, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Being a Devadasi is my religion

The Sexual aspects of the Devadasi are well documented and have become increasingly contested. Are the Devadasi an auspicious group of Temple servants who have integrated sexual acts into their worship or are they sex slaves in religious prostitution? Such sexual practices in religion are not unusual or exceptional. However in modern times these practices are reduced and collapsed into "prostitution" and so a great controversy has arisen.

Many modern Indians consider the sexual traditions of the Devadasi to be embarrassing and so attempts have been made to separate parts of the tradition that are considered High Culture such as the song and dancing from the other traditions that involve sexual practices.

This contest does not need to be denied and the Wikipedia is not a partisan soap box for one side to lay claim to the production of knowledge regarding the Devadasi.

In presenting the various contests in a reasoned way a better understanding of the Devadasi might be reached. You might not agree with my contributions but trying to censor them represents the typical way moralists have tried to silence the voices of the Devadasi. You have decided that once again the ordinary Devadasi have no right to contribute to the discourse about their faith and practices. This is not scholarship it is prejudice and fear.

I accept that many Indians want to create a dichotomy between the various Devadasi acts that they judge to be good or bad, I believe that the dichotomy is unnecessary and has caused the Devadasi great harm. My contributions are balanced, referenced and reasonable.

Inflammatory language is a cheap device and is not proper argument

Inflammatory language is a cheap device and is not proper argument

I do not use this site to promote my Devadasi life and I happily agreed to delete a link to an interview of mine, so that there would be no appearance of impropriety. I am committed to a Devadasi renaissance so I believe the various “truths” need to be unpacked and examined.

You ravings and threats are no way to conduct a proper consideration of our differences. You are just trying to slander me and threaten the editors into giving way to your prejudice.

You are hoping that by invoking the stigma attached to sex work to discredit me as a contributor, this is a very unpleasant strategy and shows that you have no interest in rational discussion.

Kama

I can dance

There was never a driect link to my commercial webpages, there was a link to a devadasi info page that I have on my website, but I am happy to see that link deleted...it has not been reinstated it is gone.. so I am not using this entry to self-promote but you are using that false idea to try and discredit my contributions.

I can dance I can sing, so just stop with the personal attacks and lies. My Devadasi lifestyle does not meet with your approval...I understand..but my contributions are not linked to my sexuality and should not be deleted because you do not like what I do in the privacy of my own bedroom.

SanTap, Is it that you see Devadasi Dance as the only or most legitimate representation of Devadasi culture? This would be a useful discussion?

Is the rigid and formal training of 6 year old girls as classical dancers acceptable? but other forms of child labour are not?

Is it acceptable to be PAID to dance rather than to just offer this talent free of charge for the benefit of the Gods?

These have been issues that many Devadasi have had to deal with.

Revisions and edits

I find the "reverts" to the earlier and very simplistic entry to be rather inane. Surely if there is a specific issue or contested matter it can be discussed and a rational compromise reached.

The modern dichotomy between certain Devadasi practices and how the divide is constructed and perceived would make for a fascinating entry, but just denying the legitimacy and voice of certain Devadasi is just typical of the censorship that has made the majority of the Devadasi invisible unless being presented by others as sex slaves.

Respect for people's opinions and way of life

I am extremely shocked to see such a torrent of abuse being focused towards the individual named Kama on this webiste. Surely in the spirit of understanding and tolerance one should be able to offer their opinion without such repurcussions.

If the editors of this website allow such vile behaviour towards one another, surely they should consider their position since allowing someone to be victimised on a website is unethical.

Healthy debate does not include personal, negative comments.