Talk:Deutsche Reichsbahn (East Germany)

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[edit] Name, etc.

The introductory paragraph read:

The Deutsche Reichsbahn or DR (German State Railways) was the national railway service of the German Democratic Republic (GDR). The DR was formed in 1949 from the components of the former Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft (DRG) in the Soviet Occupation Zone of Germany (which became the GDR on 1949-10-07). The components of the DRG in West Germany formed the Deutsche Bundesbahn (DB).

There are a couple of problems with this that I have aimed to correct.

  • Reichsbahn can be translated as "state railways" but the more usual translation of Reich is "empire," which helps explain why the word was not used for other post-1945 public institutions. It's a bit disingenuous to translate this as State without comment, considering that the word is, and was, controversial in Germany.
  • The definition of "Deutsche Reichsbahn" as the GDR railway and the previous national railway as the "Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft" is arbitrary; the earlier railway was also most commonly called the "Deutsche Reichsbahn." The German Wikipedia lists the 1920 corporation as "Deutsche Reichsbahn" and the East German one as "Deutsche Reichsbahn (Ostdeutschland)." Gesellschaft simply means "corporation" and was never commonly used to describe it, any more than you might choose nowadays to eat a McDonald's Corporation hamburger. I suggest we move this page to "Deutsche Reichsbahn (East Germany)" or similar and the Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft page to Deutsche Reichsbahn, as the latter was the first, and larger, of the two.
  • The railway (arguably) wasn't formed in 1949; it was, under GDR law, a continuation of the existing railway by that name, once the railways had been returned to German ownership by the allies. I've rephrased this.

ProhibitOnions 21:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

How do you translate Deutsche Reichsbahn, especially in the context of a communist country? The textbook translation of "Reich" is "empire", but that is misleading in reference to a country like the GDR that by ideology was against imperialism. Other translations proposed (see the the introduction of the Weimar Republic article) might be "commonwealth" or "realm",- both terms, however, seem awkward when used as "German Commonwealth/Realm Railway". They just do not work. "German State Railway" is not literal, but conveys the meaning. Ekem 15:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Whatever we might think of the GDR's claim to being "against imperialism", it continued to use the name of the German Imperial Railways because had it not done so it would have lost control of the railways in West Berlin. It would be disingenuous to translate Reich as a neutral (or socialist) term such as "State" without explanation. The reason for the use of the name is given in the article; the German article goes into greater detail as to the treaties and agreements specifying the "Deutsche Reichsbahn" as the West Berlin railway. Otherwise they would certainly have renamed it. I can translate the German section if there is a greater need for it; the part about the name issue in the English article is a simpler paraphrase. ProhibitOnions 21:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

I have moved this page to Deutsche Reichsbahn of the GDR and will create a disambiguation page at Deutsche Reichsbahn pointing to both here and the Deutsche Reichsbahn-Gesellschaft article so people can clearly see the both Reichsbahns are not the same entity. --Doco 10:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translating "Reich" (again)

The literal translation of "Reich" is "realm", not "empire"!

  • Königreich = kingdom (the king's realm).
  • Kaiserreich = Empire (emperor's realm).

When we say "the animal realm", or when Shakespeare said "This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England" we are not talking about an empire or any other form of government. To translate it as "Imperial" is implying a meaning which is not there. See Reich, where it explains that the Weimar Republic used the name Deutsches Reich.

Unfortunately "realm" is not a word in common modern usage in English. The nearest approximation is "nation". I have therefore changed the translation to "German national railways", with a footnote. Hopefully this does not start an edit war. TiffaF 06:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Not really true, I'm afraid (Reich can indeed also mean "realm" but that's not what it was taken to mean during the Age of Empires, the Weimar Republic, or the Third Reich), and "national" doesn't do it, either. That fact is, "Reichsbahn" was a weird and anomalous term that meant, and means, "Imperial Railways". The reasons for the continuing use of this name are discussed later in the article. ProhibitOnions (T) 09:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Then again, the more I think about this, I wonder if it is really necessary at all to even bother about translating "Reich" into English, at least for the purpose of Wikipedia articles such as this one, given that the word "Reich" has entered into the English language realm (no pun intended). As an example, the term "Third Reich" is used constantly in the "popular" media (e.g., documentaries, motion pictures, books, magazine articles, etc.) whenever the subject of Nazi Germany comes up, without any attempt at all to explain what "Reich" means in English (or "Nazi" for that matter). As I sense that the overriding concern here is to ensure the average English-language reader of Wikipedia understands what he/she is reading, I think it would be far better to simply translate "Deutsche Reichsbahn" as the "German Reich Railways" and refer the reader to the article Reich where the discussion of the English meaning of "Reich" could be carried on in exhaustive detail. Cvieg 15:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, you may be right. I don't have the book with me, but the East Germans evidently did refer to the milder definitions (realm, homeland, etc.) of the term to be able to retain it for their railway (the French authorities were evidently adamant that it change, but what's the German name for France? Frankreich!), but the nasty imperial meaning was pretty clear, and something the GDR would liked to have rid itself of, just not enough to give up control of West Berlin's railways. But it may indeed be better to leave the discussion of this in the Reich article (which I think does a good job of it), in the manner you suggest. We should probably still mention the "imperialistic connotations of the name" (or similar) in the context of why the GDR kept it. ProhibitOnions (T) 15:29, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree completely, particularly with your comments concerning why the GDR kept the name Reichsbahn despite the obvious connotations. Cvieg 00:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
All right, would you like to go ahead and change the articles? ProhibitOnions (T) 07:52, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Done. I will also make the necessary changes to the Deutsche Reichsbahn-Gesellschaft article shortly. Cvieg 17:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks all, I am happy with "German Reich Railway" and a link to the Reich article. Though Reich can (and often was before 1920) used as an abbreviation for Kaiserreich, to imply it always means "empire" is misleading non German-speaking readers. And "Frankreich" is definitely not "the French empire", neither is "In Reich des Tieres" (a recent TV series) referring to an empire! It should perhaps be though of in the same light as Deutsche Bahn being short for "Eisenbahn", but no way does "Bahn" on its own mean solely railway. TiffaF 06:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)