Talk:Deus Ex

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Deus Ex article.
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Good article Deus Ex has been listed as one of the Everyday life good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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To-do list for Deus Ex: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Game Development section
  • Track down more sources to write new section
Thank you, ZFGokuSSJ1!
  • Formulate plan of attack on Talk page
  • Begin first attempt at copy
  • Polish, buff as necessary
  • Gameplay Section
  • Rethink and rewrite current approach to FPS/RPG issue
One more out of the way.
  • Find sources/original material as guideline for discussion of in-game mechanics
  • Rewrite and shrink accordingly
  • Plot and Setting section
  • Figure out "bare bones" plot elements
I think we're there. Finally. Consequentially
  • Shrink accordingly
  • Real World and Literary Allusions
  • Figure out Fiction sub-section, and what to do with it
  • Ponder sneaking remaining information into Development
  • Critical Reception
  • Uncover magazine sources to broaden scope
  • Expand, expand, expand
  • Copyediting
  • Wait patiently until a section is relatively stable
  • Polish without mercy, until its necessary to avert your eyes from the shiny
Archive
Archives
/Archive 1
/Archive 2
/Archive 3
/Archive 4
/Archive 5 - (1st GA review)
/Archive 6


Contents

[edit] Merges

Personally I think the tagged merges for organizations should be merged into a single "organizations of Deus Ex" article since this current main article is 57 kilobytes. What are other peoples suggestions as to what to do? Radagast83 18:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the factions all use a single page (just like the characters). - KingRaptor 13:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Normally I would agree with you. The only problem with that from what I can see is it might be hard to cram all the worthwhile info from the separate pages into one page of reasonable length. -- Grandpafootsoldier 20:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Much of the information on many of the pages seem to be mostly plot summary or character infomation. Infact, most of the characters should be on the major/minor character pages, and not in the organization pages once those are moved there isn't much left. Radagast83 04:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Hm, well if you think its possible go for it. That might remove a source for a lot of the constant bickering around here. -- Grandpafootsoldier 19:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I think I cleared out all the character info from the Organization pages. I propose that there should be two seperate pages for the organizations. One for each game. There still needs to be some cutting of information (that would have to be determined at the time of merging), but I really think that putting them together would allow for expanding the interactions between the different groups in each game, etc. Radagast83 05:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Erm, those characters were transferred to their respective organisation pages because the character pages were becoming too crowded. Gamer Junkie 08:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Character content should probably not be removed from character pages. Those articles are either almost or completely unsorced, the best move if a page is getting too long would be to hone down the content to be encylopedic (they seem to have quite a few unsourced statments that should be removed if there can't be any verifiable backing to them). I'll probably take a shot at it at some point if no one else gets to them first. Radagast83 22:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The information on the character pages is almost entirely from in-game dialogue. People say that it seems unsourced, but that's because most people haven't played through every available path and script available in Deus Ex. Not surprising, though, as hearing every conversation and picking every path available to the player would take at least half-a-dozen playthroughs in this game. Regardless of where the informations is, I don't care. I helped shift it, but it was an admin who wanted it done to begin with, I believe. Gamer Junkie 15:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Renomination time?

I think it's time we submit the article to Featured Article rank... it's very well written and... isn't bad. Should we? - ZFGokuSSJ1 19:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's worth trying to go for FA quite yet. There are still some elements this article still needs to pass that (specifically more references). It could be worthwhile to try for GA, however, though it might be a good idea to get a peer review first. -- Grandpafootsoldier 20:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've submitted it for peer review. -- Grandpafootsoldier 19:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Great! -ZFGokuSSJ1 20:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
FA status is overrated rubbish. Why even bother? Gamer Junkie 22:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
So we can someday appear on the Main Page and become famous.
Personally, I'll be damned if Torchic makes frontpage and DX doesn't! - KingRaptor 01:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Spending time editing an online encyclopedia is probably not the best way to upgrade one's social status :) Personally, I'll be happy with a comprehensive article which is useful to those who take the time to look it up. Gamer Junkie 02:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

FA status is recognition that this article is one of the best and most comprehensive on Wikipedia. I definitely think that's worth striving for - especially as this game is one of the most kick-ass around and deserves the acknowledgment. The wealth and fame for us that go along with that are secondary ;) -- Grandpafootsoldier 19:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nuclear missile?

(Apologies if that has already been discussed - this page has quite a history.) Is the missile that JCD redirects at Area 51 really nuclear as stated in the article? I don't have the game installed at the moment so I can't check all the dialogues referring to it, but it seems unlikely to me that the missile is nuclear given that a) the site is very damaged but far from flattened; there is even still a tower standing, and b) JC picks up no radiations when he goes there straight after the impact. Thermaland 10:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

It was probably a conventional IRBM. I've edited the article to just say "missile". - KingRaptor 10:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
It definitely wasn't nuclear, and considering most of the buildings were still standing, albeit badly damaged, and there were surviving troops on the surface after the detonation, the yield was likely also very low. I'd say it was a conventional cruise missile. It's a little strange actually. I'd be inclined to agree that it's an IRBM, although IRBM's are usually small enough to be housed in/on assorted portable launching systems. The missile looks more to the scale of a Peacekeeper MX, but with said rocket having a blast yield enough to level a city, the surface of Area 51 would've been little more than a smoking smudge. It could have been a Jupiter or a Redstone, but they've been obsolete for decades already let alone still active however many decades Deus Ex is set in the future. In any case, it wasn't nuclear. Gamer Junkie 11:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Come to think of it. I think I remember reading a file containing something about a Minuteman missile. The fact that it's supposed to stay active until at least 2025 and that its conventional warhead breaks up into smaller clusters before impact would fit the type of superficial damage caused to Area 51. People could even survive, provided they were lucky enough to be standing in the right place when it hit. Does anybody else remember reading something about this, or am I completely off the mark? Gamer Junkie 11:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it definitely is a nuclear missile. That is why I changed it to read that in the first place. As for evidence, first, as can be seen in this satellite pic you get in game at the start of the mission, most of Area 51 has been destroyed, and the only buildings left standing are on the very periphery of the base and/or are reinforced bunkers. There is no way a conventional warhead could do that much damage. Secondly, and most conclusively, it says here (scroll down a bit) that it is nuclear, and this is an approved "Continuity Bible" by the developers of the game. I'm changing the sentence back to read nuclear. -- Grandpafootsoldier 19:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Very well, we'll go with that, but now I know the developers messed up. As a former Air Force member, I can assure you that they don't make nuclear weapons that do as little damage as shown in that photo. The Peacemaker MX I was talking about earlier has twenty-five times the destructive power of the "Little Boy" model dropped on Hiroshima, and the Peacemaker isn't even in service anymore. Actually, I believe the "Little Boy" is the weakest nuclear weapon ever created, and that thing levelled an entire city. Besides, anybody that close to the blast who wasn't immediately vapourised would have melted to puddles of meaty pulp that close to a detonation. Since the soldier you find on the surface said that groups of them survived the blast and were actually alert and focused enough to launch a counterattack against Majestic 12's troopers, that's not very realistic. Not only that, but the power is still working on the surface, whereas all electronic equipment would have been completely destroyed following a nuclear detonation. Also, conventional ICBM's and IRBM's could do that much damage, and would actually do much more damage than that if it were a modern day rocket. The old-skool Redstone, Jupiter and Thor models would probably do that level of damage, but they'd be long gone by Deus Ex's time. Anyway, if that's what the developers said, I suppose we have to go with it. Gamer Junkie 00:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

What you say is probably true, but remember that Deus Ex is both fictional and is supposed to take place in the future, so there are a number of other factors you have take in to account. Since it is supposed to take place 50 odd years in the future, it could be some sort of very small yield nuclear device which hasn't yet been developed (I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the military was planning on developing such a missile to deal with the underground bunkers used by the Taliban in Afghanistan). Also, as I said before, the game map and that photo are of the very edge of a much larger base (remember that according to Jock and others there had been a lot of building going on over the past few years). As for the surviving soldiers, perhaps most of them had been underground when the blast occurred and had only come out a while before you arrived. Power could also possibly have been hooked back up from the main underground bunker. But this isn't really the place to be speculating on this kind of thing anyway. The developers said "nuclear" so we just have to go with that on the page. -- Grandpafootsoldier 05:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The "bunker busters" you mentioned are actually conventional warheads, tipped with depleted uranium, I believe. But in that photo, you can see the blackened central impact of the blast crater. Also, the soldier you speak with says that he was on the surface, because he mentions that he saw the "guys in black" come pouring out of the bunker doors and start shooting at the surviving soldiers. You also couldn't restore power, because an E.M.P. blast overloads and melts down the devices themselves, not just the object providing the power. You'd have to literally replace all electronic devices as well as the generator to have it function properly again. I'd say the developers are simply unfamiliar with information of a military nature. I guess that's why it's always a smart idea to contract a military advisor for such things. Gamer Junkie 06:13, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA again

Okay, I've renominated the page for GA. -- Grandpafootsoldier 08:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

Hi; I've placed the GA on hold, although it's fairly close. The refs should be referenced appropriately, without just providing a URL. Template:Cite web is a good way to do this. Aside from that, it looks good. It'll need more copy-editing, tweaking, and whatnot for FA status, but once those refs are fixed, it'll be passable for GA status for sure. — Deckiller 17:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, some of the images need Wikipedia:Fair use rationale. — Deckiller 18:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the review! I added a rationale for the box art image, I'm pretty sure it's the only one which needed it. I've also changed the reference format. Let me know if they are detailed enough now, or if I still need to add anything. -- Grandpafootsoldier 21:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Nice work. The only major issue I see with the referencing are lack of authors (especially in the reception references. If a source has an author, it's usually recommended in most situations that we cite the author. 65 through 67 need accessdates, as well. — Deckiller 21:12, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
By the way, this game looks great. — Deckiller 21:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, it's always been one of my favorites ;)
Okay, I've added the dates and names to the refs. - Grandpafootsoldier 02:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Looks good, thanks. — Deckiller 03:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Hurrah! I come back from my first phase of Air Force training to see that my efforts were not in vain! Consequentially 22:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why did they cancel the movie

Perhaps we should add some details. Jamhaw 14:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)jamhaw

I don't believe they gave a specific reason. I can't say I'm overly disappointed, though. Judging by past attempts at video game-to-movie productions, it would have doubtless been quite shite. Gamer Junkie 15:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Game-to-film conversions have been pretty bad, but that's probably only because Uwe Boll makes them. - KingRaptor 11:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's not forget Paul W. S. Anderson.--Drat (Talk) 12:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] weapons in deus ex

who removed the weapons in deus ex section.? it took ages to create that, not to mention all the other wikipedia users who spent time perfecting it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.43.91.89 (talk) 10:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

It's unneeded detail. Wikipedia is not a game guide.--Drat (Talk) 10:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

But it was all ready there the game guide thing is so people will add info on main things not that you should delete whats there.--Blood sliver 21:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Stuff like that tends not to last very long on Wikipedia, Blood Sliver. If you'd like to create an article regarding things such as weapons without it being virtually assured of deletion, I'd suggest writing it for a Deus Ex fan site of some kind. Gamer Junkie 22:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Series page?

Now that DX3 has been announced, is it time to make a Deus Ex series article for Wikipedia? -ZFGokuSSJ1 13:07, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

...it's been announced? Where did you find that out?
Edit: Never mind, I looked at the source in the article for DX3. UnaLaguna 16:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

It might be better to wait until the game is actually out before going in that direction. -- Grandpafootsoldier 05:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Character pages

I've moved the info for Nicolette DuClare and Chad Dumier to their own separate pages. The previous setup of having substantial information on two separate pages was not working IMO - especially in regard to DuClare. Also, given the fact that all other characters that appear in both games have their own pages, this didn't seem too out of the ordinary. -- Grandpafootsoldier 10:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deus EX 3!

Is this for real? Jamhaw 18:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)jamhaw

Apparently it is: Eidos Confirms Next Deus Ex -- Grandpafootsoldier 18:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

on second thought it could just be a mistake check out the history of Tiberian Twilight

HUSH! Unbeliever! Do not doubt, this be the best news to hit this planet since the first coming of Jesus.Itake 23:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Development section?

Would it be appropriate to add a development section to the article, similar to System Shock or Half-Life? Here are some sources of small info on development of DX (maybe... I know the first two are good ones, the rest are just good interviews with Warren... which are probably better for the Warren article):
http://www.gameslice.com/features/spector/index.shtml
http://nuwen.net/dx.html#postmortem
http://pc.ign.com/articles/437/437677p1.html
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070305/sheffield_01.shtml
http://www.gametab.com/news/516264/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/category/437
-ZFGokuSSJ1 20:05, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deus Ex High Definition Texture Pack

Wouldn't it be helpful to mention this upgrade, and at least provide a link in the external links section? The System Shock 2 page mentions that game's respective upgrade packs. http://offtopicproductions.com/hdtp/ --70.234.44.17 07:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Those upgrade packs have got mentions in magazines and notable sites and the like. What about this?--Drat (Talk) 09:44, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Yup, it has, right here. -- Y|yukichigai (ramble argue check) 06:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
That tiny mention is beyond trivial.--Drat (Talk) 10:05, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
For putting it in the main article, I agree. It fits just fine in the Deus Ex mods article though, as I can count on one hand (still) the number of Deus Ex mods that have even been mentioned in a print magazine article. -- Y|yukichigai (ramble argue check) 21:23, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I assumed a short description of the upgrade along with a link would not require justification based on notable sources. I was thinking of it as an extension to the primary topic of this article, and not a "mod". Also one purpose of the External Links section is to provide convenient links to other resources that are just what someone reading the article might be looking for. (i.e. convenience, no external links are ever strictly needed) When I posted that I didn't know about the Deus Ex mods article, however, and agree the information should go there instead. --64.149.45.181 13:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
By the way, it was interesting to see that your name is part of one of the URLs on that magazine scan, yukichigai. I tried to download Shifter, but the zip files on both your site and Filefront were corrupt. But that's neither here nor there... That reference would be notable enough to put into either article for me - assuming the specific issue and publication date were mentioned - if a better one isn't found. --64.149.45.181 13:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] without killing

With major character I believe you mean anna? well look at this youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsh24FmYlNQ you might say this is a glitch, but on the other hand no character mention the death of anna, not even gunther.

Youtube videos are not a reliable source.--Drat (Talk) 00:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
The source in this case would be the primary topic itself, as with other articles on works of fiction. I guess the YouTube link is simply to convince the editors to come to a consensus and add it. (that or it was just him advertising a video of his k3wl trick...) --64.149.45.181

[edit] Not Best Selling

The factual accuracy of the claim to this being a best selling game is dubious. Citation (5) shows the game only sold around half a million units. This is peanuts, I'm afraid. If you read this article more carefully, you will see the first list is not best selling games but a random sampling of games. The later list shows the actual best selling games where, for instance, Final Fantasy VII racks up 7.8 million units, and the Pokemon games rack up 8 million units.

There is no getting around it: Deus Ex was not a best selling game. It sold modestly well. Enough for a sequel, but rather less than was hoped I suspect. I suggest ammending this claim. (I can't vouch for the Mac sales; Mac games sell rather less so it might be more significant in this context).

[CB] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.172.109.240 (talk • contribs)

I've heard this said before, and believe you to be correct. The thing is it's been quite difficult to find accurate sales figures for Deus Ex, much less commentary on its relative success that can be used as a source. I've altered the sentence in question as much as possible for the moment, but if you could provide some solid sources for what you are saying I would really appreciate it. -- Grandpafootsoldier 07:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I checked on the citation right after this comment, and confirm that it didn't support the statement that the game "was [successful] commercially and was among the top selling computer role-playing games at the time of its release". Unfortunately the cited website appears to be offline now. (Guess I should've said something earlier.)
Therefore I am removing the reference, but will leave the claim in. Someone else may add another valid reference or a citation needed tag. --64.149.39.52 06:53, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts on the article

The article is in good shape, but it has a few issues that will keep it from attaining FA. For example, the article states that Deus Ex is a FPS/RPG, while Warren Spector had this to say in the game's Game Developer Magazine post-mortem:

"Conceptually, Deus Ex is a genre-busting game (which really endeared us to the marketing guys) -- part immersive simulation, part role-playing game, part first-person shooter, part adventure game."

He then breaks it down with the following:

"It's an immersive simulation game in that you are made to feel you're actually in the game world with as little as possible getting in the way of the experience of "being there." Ideally, nothing reminds you that you're just playing a game -- not interface, not your character's back-story or capabilities, not game systems, nothing. It's all about how you interact with a relatively complex environment in ways that you find interesting (rather than in ways the developers think are interesting), and in ways that move you closer to accomplishing your goals (not the developers' goals).

It's a role-playing game in that you play a role and make character development choices that ensure that you end up with a unique alter ego. You make your way through a variety of minute-to-minute gameplay experiences (which add up to a story) in a manner that grows naturally out of the unique aspects of your character. Every game system is designed to differentiate one player-character from another, and to allow players to make decisions that reflect their own biases and express character differences in obvious ways in the game world.

It's a first-person shooter because the action unfolds in real time, seen through the virtual eyes of your alter ego in the game world. Your reflexes and skill play an important part in determining your success in combat. However, unlike the typical FPS, Deus Ex doesn't force you to shoot every virtual thing that moves. Also unlike the average FPS, in which gameplay is limited to pulling a virtual trigger, finding blue keys to open blue doors and jumping to reach seemingly inaccessible locations, Deus Ex offers players a wide range of gameplay options.

And finally, Deus Ex is like adventure games in that it's story-driven, linear in narrative structure, and involves character interaction and item accumulation to advance the plot. However, unlike most adventure games (in which you spend the bulk of your time solving clever puzzles in a search for the next static, but very pretty, screen), Deus Ex asks players to determine how they will solve game problems and forces them to deal with the consequences of their choices."

I've worked on articles with this problem before (System Shock, Deus Ex: Invisible War), and what I did to avoid the issue was to simply call them "first-person" games. In the case of Invisible War, I set one of the genres as "multiple", with a link to the article's Gameplay section, which broke down the elements. I think that could work here, but I won't make any edits regarding it until we can come to an agreement.

Another issue is the abundance of iffy material, like this:

"When the player engages in combat the game tends to reward a tactical approach. As the player will often encounter enemies in groups, the use of cover, strafing, and "hit-and-run" tactics becomes important.

Stuff like this also runs the risk of being original research, unless there's a source out there to back this up. The gameplay section, in particular, has problems with this. Another problem is the sheer size of it--it's possibly the biggest I've ever seen, which will not go over well in FAC. A good way to eliminate these issues is to find source material--like a manual, for example--, and only type down what is covered in it. It's how I wrote the gameplay sections for System Shock and Invisible War. The reference point to use for a gameplay section is easily The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. It is, simply put, the best I've ever seen. I tried to model Invisible War's after it, with little success.

Moving on, I'm going to put this as simply as possible: the plot section is far, far too big to make it through FAC. In fact, it's around 500 words longer than the titanic Final Fantasy VII plot section, which [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Final Fantasy VII |barely survived FAC]], despite being incredibly well done (at the time; the article seems to have aged poorly). It needs to be trimmed down until it covers only the most important points, or we're never going to get this article to FA. The setting section is pretty good, but it needs citations and a more out-of-universe perspective. Morrowind, again, is the best place to look when trying to find inspiration.

The the Fiction subheading in the Allusions section is a bit much. Going against Wikipedia rules, it's basically an indiscriminate collection of information, in the style of a trivia section. We could probably lose Fiction entirely, and keep the other two subheadings as they are, or incorporate them both into a Development section, which we can't get to FA without.

The Reception is good, but lacking in magazine material. Where are the scores and quotations from Edge, PC Gamer, Computer Gaming World, Next Generation and Computer and Video Games? Several common FAC denizens, particularly User:hahnchen, are going to eat this article alive unless it covers a broad scope of sources. Too much is made of the GameSpot review, as well.

After these issues are taken care of, the article is going to need a copyedit from multiple users. This is typical, and it's happened to me on every single one of my FAs.

Overall, the article is pretty good, and we could probably get it to FAC within the next two weeks if we work at it. The biggest problem will be finding reference material, as the game is getting on in years, but it shouldn't be as bad as what happened to me with the System Shock article. Enough talk, though. I'm going to go put my nose to the grindstone. JimmyBlackwing 14:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Not an easy list of things to do, but a worthwhile one. I can set in on getting the reception section up to par. I'll probably start tackling that tonight when I can dedicate a large block of time. Someone else will have to take on the plot synopsis, as I'm a bit too close to the text. I added the bulk (pun?) of it into the article, and I'm horrible when it comes to trimming my business now. There are sources that might help with the setting section, especially in regards to pulling it into a more out-of-universe perspective.
All that said, I'm going to go ahead and edit the To-Do list up top so we have a new set of goals in mind. Consequentially 18:35, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good. I'm going to busy myself with condensing and referencing the gameplay section, once I find the sources with which to do so. I need to find my old Deus Ex manual, and see if there's anything usable in there. JimmyBlackwing 19:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Sweet, I knew you would be a big help on this JimmyBlackwing. In regard to print reviews of the game, I actually have the clippings of the PC Gamer, Computer Gaming World, and Computer Games magazine reviews which came with my copy of Deus Ex with me if you feel they would be preferable.

The "Popular culture" section is essentially the old trivia section rewritten in prose form, so I understand your feelings about it. The thing is since Deus Ex is so rife with outside references, and since they are so widely commented upon in discussion of the game, I think they at least deserve a cursory mention, even if incorporated into other sections.

I agree with you about the length of the story section, it is longer then I would like. The problem is since Deus Ex has such a long and (dare I say) convoluted plot, I think it will be quite difficult to trim it much more than it is now without it being impossible to follow. I was wondering though, If it is as unlikely to pass as you seem to suggest, why this didn't seem to have stopped Chrono Trigger when it was brought up for FAC when its plot section is actually longer.

Thanks again for your help. -- Grandpafootsoldier 04:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

We could remove parts of sentences that aren't essential... for example: "Using a computer beneath the DuClare Château, JC makes contact with the Illuminati leader." that sentence could easily be changed to: "In the DuClare Chateau, JC contacts the Illuminati leader." Sure, it's not much, but if there's tons of sentences like that, it could make a difference. -ZFGokuSSJ1 12:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Exactly. I have no idea how Chrono Trigger made it through with a plot section of that size, but it's an exception to the rule from what I've seen, as reading the Final Fantasy VII nomination page will tell you. I agree that Deus Ex has an extremely long and complicated plot, but as ZFGoku said, crufty little details like that will add up. With the plot sections of Halo and System Shock, I read the games' scripts until I found the most critical moments. Not every game has the luxury of an easy-to-access script, but we're in luck: someone typed down Deus Ex's. As for the reviews and pop culture references, that would be great. Those three reviews are definitely necessary, and a cursory mention of the references should be fine, particularly if we can find an interview where the developers talked about it. JimmyBlackwing 16:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Ethical gameplay reference

I found a couple different articles by the same person that argue for the importance of ethics in Deus Ex. I plan on incorporating one of them into the article, which do you think is the strongest? Consequentially 05:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Example One.
  • Example Two. This is in the article right now.
    • The one currently in the article deals with the subject it is citing, while the other one deals with some of Deus Ex's other ethical systems. I would recommend that you keep using the second one for the thing it cites, while using the other for something else, when it becomes necessary. For example, the first describes how being kind or cruel can change the way NPCs respond to you, which should definitely be somewhere in the article. JimmyBlackwing 15:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Synopsis

Took one look through the Synopsis and managed to take it down from 1930 to 1708 words. I'm going to print it out tonight and play the red pen game. Maybe that'll get me another 200 words. Started with 1930, down to 1548. 1378 Side note on the synopsis section: how much of this needs to be referenced? I can do as much citing from the original script as you want thanks to the link at GameFAQs, but I don't know how much is usual for an article like this. Thoughts? Consequentially 22:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there's any standard for how many to use. When writing the Halo: Combat Evolved and System Shock synopses, I largely just followed my gut, but I used Final Fantasy VII as a general guide. That article has fallen into disrepair as of late, however, so I can't really suggest that you use it. All I can recommend is citing what you think is most important, and considering removing what doesn't fall into that category. I've found in the past that it helps in streamlining plot sections. Not everything falls under this, but it's been a good general guideline for me thus far. JimmyBlackwing 02:40, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Area 51 not the original final level

Area 51 was not going to be the final level. Should we add this to the article? [1]

I and others here would like to have this and other production-related stuff in the article, but at this point the length is going to make it difficult. That's one of the main issues at this time actually. -- Grandpafootsoldier 05:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pop Culture --> Production?

Hey, I was thinking about cutting down the "Popular Culture" section and turning it more into a Production-related section. Some of the stuff there could be kept (such as how the text system works in game), but it would just be put more in context of the overall game design. This seems pretty doable to me given all the info available in the Gamasutra postmortem. What do you guys think about it? -- Grandpafootsoldier 05:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Whoops! Looks like you already suggested this Blackwing. Good call. -- Grandpafootsoldier 05:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Best Game of All Time award by PC Zone

ZFGokuSSJ1, why did you revert this addition? You said it was an unnecessary addition, but I completely fail to see how its unnecessary. Its one sentence which briefly alludes to the fact that it has received a Best Game of All Time award...something which is VERY MUCH appropriate to the first few paragraphs. Articles are intended to be tailored mostly towards people who have no clue about the subject matter, and the fact that Deus Ex got the Best Game of All Time award from PC Zone (a not-insignificant achievement) is something that a newbie to Deus Ex would find very relevant. I won't revert it yet, I'll wait to see what you have to say. If you don't reply within a day or so, I'll revert it, I believe the fact's inclusion is warranted. Dhalphir 11:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

If you can somehow incorporate it into the first paragraph to make it run smoother rather than just adding a whole new sentence with "Deus Ex was named the best PC game ever by PC Zone..." blah blah blah, then it would be a good addition.-ZFGokuSSJ1 16:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
How's this?

Deus Ex (abbreviated DX and pronounced as IPA: /ˌdeɪəsʔˈɛks/, day-uss ex) is a cyberpunk-themed first-person shooter/computer role-playing game developed by Ion Storm Inc. and published by Eidos Interactive. Released on June 22, 2000, the game received almost universal critical and industry acclaim, including being crowned Best Game of All Time in a poll carried out by UK gaming magazine PC Zone. [1], and was a frequent candidate for and winner of Game of the Year awards.[2][3][4][5] Dhalphir 01:06, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I edited it a bit to make it better, that's a lot better than the first revision you did. :)-ZFGokuSSJ1 15:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Hm, personally it sounds better to me keeping the Game of the Year mentions in the same sentence as the Best Game of All Time, but it sounds good in that revision too. A good compromise Dhalphir 02:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Audio sample

Hey everyone, I've been thinking of adding an audio sample from the theme song for the Soundtrack section. Would it be a good addition? -ZFGokuSSJ1 19:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

A short segment would be appropriate, especially given that the main theme was only included because one of the devs found it catchy. -- Y|yukichigai (ramble argue check) 02:47, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Excessive fair use images

Just noting that someone will prolly come by and whack half the images; I suggest removing the plot section ones and they are the least essential. David Fuchs (talk) 00:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aren't so-called "FPS/RPGs" just Action RPGs?

The article states that Deus Ex is an "FPS/RPG"...or it did until I changed it. The fact is that FPS is not a really genre unto itself. FPS is a type of game in the Shooter genre, which is itself a type of game in the Action genre. As such, "FPS/RPG" are really just "Action RPGs". Action RPGs are defined as RPG games where the combat system is in real time, often focusing on skills in reflex action. In essence, a game that combines RPG focus on character building with action gameplay. Deus Ex does just that. FPS is a type of action game focusing on shooting combat (like all shooters). RPGs are games that focus on character creation/building through stats, lvls, etc. (in Deus Ex these are skill points and mods).

Deus Ex is, by and large, an Action RPG. "FPS/RPG" is simply focusing on the type of action gameplay it employs, but the genre it falls under is already an established one: Action RPG. Therealspiffyone (talk) 15:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I'd hardly compare games like Deus Ex and System Shock 2 to the likes of Diablo and The Elder Scrolls. The former place much more emphasis on action and combat, with elements of RPG styles to make the game more involving and give the player a less straightforward shooter. This is not action RPG, but whatever. I guess we'll see what everybody else thinks. Gamer Junkie T / C 07:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
But why compare them only to Western-style action/RPGs like Diablo and The Elder Scrolls? Compare Deus Ex and System Shock to Japanese developed action RPGs and you'll see that the latter have as much emphasis on combat than you think. Also..."action AND combat"? Combat IS an action. Therealspiffyone (talk) 00:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
You're splitting hairs. Ask one thousand gamers to compare two games of a single genre and I'd bet my life you wouldn't get a single response with Diablo and Deus Ex in the same sentence. As for the Japanese games, name a few. Gamer Junkie T / C 05:15, 31 January 2008 (UTC)