Talk:Desire (album)
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[edit] Hurricane
- "Hurricane" neglects to mention that Carter was also an "admitted"(and convicted) felon since the age of 14. Lion King 02:35, 14 November 2005 (UTC)P.S. Dylan's real "defamatory treatment" in this fairytale, is of two "non felons"- he should be ashamed, and delete it!Lion King
The following text should be deleted or rewritten, as it is very POV: "Even after the lyric change, the song still had many faults. Carter did not seem like a fully rounded character. There was no reference to his antagonistic rhetoric, criminal history, or violent temper. Also, Carter was not the #1 contender, his ranking according to Ring Magazine was, #9. It has been well documented by Cal Deal, that Dylan only reflected Carter's account of events, others, he quite simply, made up."
"the song...had many faults" and the rest is opinion - in might be reasonable opinion, but it is not appropriate here. We could criticize all kinds of lyrics (and books, movies, etc.) for not fully representing someone of providing a "rounded character". Wikipedia should not be the judge of what Dylan should or should not have included in his music.
I am OK, but not enthusiastic, about leaving the the ranking issue in, and the Cal Deal part, if citations can be added. As of yet, well, who the hell is Cal Deal anyway?
As several people have edited this recently, I thought I would pose the issue here first. --Chinawhitecotton 20:09, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Carter's rhetoric, criminal history and violent temper are documented fact. This "song" ignores fact, available to it's author at the time of writing. Instead, it relies mainly on fiction. As the article states, Dylan wrote a movie, and unlike "The Ballad Of Jesse James" or "Joey" this "song" is still being peddled as "the truth".Lion King 20:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC) P.S. Remember that this song, is screaming out to the world, "This man is the victim of a racist police frame up" without one shred of evidence, to back it up. It's not saying, "he robbed from the rich, and gave it to the poor, so they put Rubin Carter in a cell." He was convicted for the murder of three innocent people, and has never been found innocent. I stongly believe, that if the "faults," and there are many of them in this song are not allowed to stand, the the whole article should be deleted, after all it should only state that "Desire" was an overated Dylan album, blah, blah, grovel to the wife(boo- hoo, blub, blub) has only sold two million copies in 30 years etc, end of. But once "Hurricane is brought into the equation it becomes a different ball game.Lion King
Sheesh talk about obnoxious. Just because you have an axe to grind and you don't like it the whole article should be deleted? Most of it is about the making of the album, you're the only one obsessing over one measly song.
- I like that, measly song, very well put, very apt description. Lion King 23:02, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey Sheesh! What's obnoxious? This guy is right Man! Hurricane is a crock of lying shit!
- Thanks anonymous person. That would, however, be your point of view - and not the view of Wikipedia. If you want to express an outrageously biased point of view, you should probably just pepper all these Carter-related articles with a bunch of links to Cal Deal's website like Lion King does... :p Dybeck 14:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know for sure in which prison Carter was visited - this page says Clinton prison, while Hurricane (song) says it was Rahway State... Dybeck 09:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Cal Deal says it was Clinton. Lion King 13:01, 22 February 2006 (UTC)P.S. If you go to his site, he even has pictures of Dylan's Concert.
- Clinton Heylin says Rahway. Lion King 15:46, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
- Howard Sounes just says Dylan visited him "in prison". Lion King 16:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The movie "Hurricane" has him in Rahway prison, and the picture on Cal Deal's webpage appears to be of the Edna Mahan correctional facility for women. I've emailed Cal Deal to check, but I strongly suspect that he met Dylan at Rahway. Dybeck 19:31, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
- The what facility for women? Just scroll down the home page and click on the photo of Carter with Dylan. Lion King 22:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I get you... but compare the picture on the bottom lefht of this page of Deal's with this picture of the E. Mahan facility (which is in Clinton).
See what you mean. Maybe it's use has changed since the mid 70's? Lion King 23:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC)P.S. Deal says Clinton was a "country club" prison, not is. Lion King 23:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
OK. Cal Deal responded to me saying that the meeting and the gig were on the same visit (which makes sense) and I'm happy with the current format, and that he believes Dylan and Carter met previously at Trenton! However, since he was present (and has a bunch of great pictures to prove it), I'm going to accept this as an authoritative source. I'm also going to be cheeky and see if he won't grant us a licence to use his pictures. Dybeck 00:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
- Disagree strongly with the wording, "artistic effect" Lion King 00:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
- I'm happy to look for a wording you're happy with, but there needs to be something there. It's not that Dylan and Carter needed to be separated - it's that the photographer wanted it to appear so. That's "artistic effect", but if you want different words there, that's fine with me.
- What I'd really like is, for it to say that it was staged to gain sympathy for Carter and to fool the public into thinking that he was "Sitting Like Buda In A Ten Foot Cell", but that of course, isn't going to happen. It's "artistic effect" alright! Lion King 11:48, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Joey
Your'e not raising POV on the fairytale of Joey Gallo then? Lion King 20:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Good point, I will look at that too. A brief skim gives me the impression that it is described in terms of the controvery raised, uses quotes from well known critics, and is less a judgement regarding "faults". I will re-read when I have time. This is probably a common issue in folk songs about outlaws... its just that these guys are (or were) more contemporary, so mythologizing carries more baggage...
What is your opinion on the Hurricane issue though? --Chinawhitecotton 20:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Should "prison" be replaced by "juvenile detention center"? Current context seems to imply a young boy was within a prison B.pub 20:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Carter was sent to a Juvenile Reformatory shortly after his 14th birthday - it was a prison, a prison for "juveniles" Lion King 21:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] ISIS
This song has many references to a sort of post-apocalyptic world, and coincides w/ a book by Richard K. Noone called 5/5/2000. In Noone's book, he claims that a polar shift will occur on 5/5/2000 due to a planetary alignment. Noone claims that some ancient calendar runs out on this date, although I can't remember if it's the Mayan or Aztec--it's one of those. Anyway, Noone also claims that the pyramids are a sort of vehicle to rescue humanity, among other bizarre conspiratorial-type stuff. In any case, the narrator of ISIS marries her on the 5th day of May, before leaving and traveling to the 'pyramids all embedded in ice," which sounds like a possible outcome of a polar shift to me. I don't remember the publication date of the Noone book, but I'm fairly sure that Dylan's song pre-dates it. Any thoughts on these connectons? Was Levy--or Dylan for that matter--into any of this esoteric/occult type stuff around the time of the writing? The album art also seems to hint at this kind of mysticism. I was just wondering if anyone else had picked up on these connections, and was curious to hear your theories/explanations. Thanks.
Surprisingly, it looks like Dylan's song does predate the book - and there certainly are a lot of similarities. Google returns only one match of the two names together, and it's not significant insofar as it marks a relationship between the two people. However, it is part of a webpage that talks at length about the end of the Mayan calendar and such - so i'm guessing that this theory predates both of them (perhaps by thousands of years!). Maybe posting to Talk:Isis (song) will find someone who knows more? It's the sparsest page I've ever seen though :) Dybeck 19:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup Taskforce
I've made some changes, since this page was marked for the cleanup taskforce. I've also gone a little further and made it a bit more NPOV. Any issues - I'm sure you'll post them here, but please have a read through Wikipedia:Cleanup Taskforce/Desire (album) first. Dybeck 02:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I've moved some duplicated content into Hurricane (song) and into Rubin Carter. I don't think having the information here sheds any new light on this ALBUM, and since these subjects have their own topics, it makes more sense to use them - and it streamlines this page.
I've converted most of the dialogue to indirect speech, and I feel that the article reads better for it. Opinions? I've also added some headings to this page for clarity. Dybeck 20:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Desire.jpg
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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:50, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
