Talk:Designated hitter

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Top class because it is a position in the game of baseball.

Contents

[edit] DH should be abolished

the designated hitter should be abolished. i think every man should have to do their own part while on the field; both defensivly and offensively.

Perhaps, but this page is for discussing the merits of and possible changes to the article, not opinions on the subject matter. --Locarno 14:30, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] POV pro-DH

When reading this page, I felt the POV was way too heavily towards the pro-DH position. This is probably because I think the DH is the worst idea in the history of the game. In any case, I have re-edited the article to include more on why NL fans prefer the more traditional, pre-1973 style of play. Vidor 23:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Injecting anti-DH POV is not a valid counter to the alleged pro-DH POV. You can rewrite sections to be more neutral, but it is not a valid use of Wikipedia to rewrite the article into an abolish-the-designated-hitter website. Also, I removed the "akin to football" line because it's simply not a valid comparison. In football, there are completely different teams for offense and defense, whereas the Designated Hitter rule makes the role of only ONE player purely defensive; as I wrote, this is more like a goalie in hockey or soccer. Iceberg3k 10:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I did no such thing as "rewrite the article into an abolish-the-designated-hitter" website. And the "akin to football" line is ENTIRELY valid, because the DH is indeed an offensive specialist, and his presence makes the pitcher into a defensive specialist, which is like football. The fact that the American League has a specialist at one position and football is entirely specialized in no way makes the analogy invalid. Your comparison to a goalie, on the other hand, is invalid, as the goalie in hockey or soccer is on the field for the entire time, unlike a DH (or an American League pitcher), who plays only half the game, just like football. Nor is the "pro-DH POV" "alleged"; the article as I found it had about half a paragraph of arguments against the DH and much, much more material on why it's a super idea.
I would further argue that having a section dedicated to "controversy" necessitates having different POV, and that if we are to have such a section, that it must be balanced between pro and con instead of being strongly pro-DH. I would rather the "controversy" section be deleted entirely, and the article be limited to the DH rule and its history, than have a pro-DH article, as it is in its current form. Vidor 06:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality should be practiced when writing any wiki article, but I don't see a problem with a controversy section at all. I think in fact it SHOULD be included, as many people are against the idea of the DH. Maybe a pro vs con list where pro could be people like Molitor et al extending careers or recuperating during injury still being able to contribute vs not being in the true spirit of the game, etc. Arnabdas 15:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia guidelines are quite clear that explaining conflicting views and debates surrounding a topic is NOT a violation of wikipedia's NPOV policy, so long as these debates are treated fairly. As the policy states: "The neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints . . . Debates are described, represented, and characterized, but not engaged in." Edelmand 11:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Molitor

Removed:

Only one designated hitter has been elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame, when Molitor was elected in 2004.

This doesn't make sense. Like almost all DH's, Molitor came up as a position player, played 3rd base for a number of years before injuries moved him over to the DH spot. A number of other HoF players finished their careers as DH's, including the aforementioned Aaron and Yastrzemski. Ellsworth 21:45, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. This could only be said if Molitor was a DH for (1) most of his years and (2) his best years. Niether is true. However, Edgar Martinez may be the first to earn this dubious distinction. --Locarno 22:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] HoF DH's

The article should include a list of HoF players who finished their careers as DHs - this innovative position did extend a few careers by a year or two, allowing Aaron to finish his career in Milwaukee (where once played for the NL Braves), playing his final season for the (then) AL Brewers. (See also Reggie Jackson in Oakland) Yadin twelve 05:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC) Yadin twelve 04:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC) (sorry, my posting yesterday was cutoff)

Molitor played more games as a DH than at any other postion.

[edit] When does an AL team lose their DH?

Could some kindly editor please detail the conditions under which an AL team loses their DH? I'm thoroughly confused on this issue, and came to this page looking for an explanation (as I'm sure did plenty of others who watched tonight's Angels/Yankees game!) I know it's some sort of player substitution, but what is the rule exactly, and for what reasons is this most likely to take place, since it's so rare? — Adam Conover † 04:02, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Pretty simple concept: If the player in the DH role changes to a fielding position, the team forfeits the DH for the rest of the game and the pitcher must bat in the newly-opened spot. Yesterday, Crosby came out of the game, Bernie Williams switched from DH to CF, and the pitcher would then bat in Crosby's spot in the order. As it played out, old man Sierra came in to pinch-hit for the pitcher, so the move didn't really affect anything. Anyway, this was explained in the first paragraph, but I've changed it into the second paragraph to make it clear. --Locarno 15:32, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article construction

I am working on improving this article, taking into consideration the concerns expressed here (though not the opinions). Em-jay-es 06:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ortiz

Is the section about whether Ortiz should be the MVP still necessary? I know it was a big deal last fall, but since he didn't end up getting the award, maybe this section deserves to be shortened to one or two sentences and/or moved to the separate article about "list of notable DH's" Dakern74 02:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minors

While I was venting about Ortiz just above, an anonymous editor has removed an entire paragraph I had written earlier today explaining how the DH rule is applied in the minor leagues. Is this not relevant to the article? Or if something I had in there was factually inaccurate, I'd appreciate a response. Dakern74 03:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hit By Pitch?

"However, sabermetrics have not borne this out; inside pitching and intentional hit batsmen have actually decreased in both leagues since 1973."

Well I just checked and HBP has RISEN by about 100% from the late 60's/early 70's. I'm not sure what an "intentional" HBP is, but unless a piece of research is referenced here I'm going to delete this. John DiFool2 16 June 2006

    --->Just wondering, where did you "check" this?  Do you have a link?  Also, is this for just the AL? Or all of MLB?

Any decent reference source, such as www.baseball-reference.com, will indicate the rise in HBP over the past 30 years or so. John DiFool2 16 July 2006

[edit] Evidence??

"Naturally, the result of the first season of the DH was that the American League posted a higher batting average than the National League, something which has remained consistent to this day."


Is there any actuall evidence to support this? Because as far as I know, neither league consistently posts a higher average than the other. Its often flips back and forth between leagues. If its true, it needs to be backed up.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.72.134.29 (talk) 15:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

No, it's true. Since '73 the AL has always had a higher league BA than the NL. Before then it did fluctuate, though the NL had a higher BA from 1964-72. Baseball Reference has pages showing the American League's and National League's season-by-season stats, although I haven't found a page that directly puts the two leagues' BAs side-by-side for convenience. I suppose I could put a graph showing the leagues' averages through the years, but I don't know if that would constitute original research or not.--Highway99 08:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


Interesting. Although it doesnt seem quite as definitive as the orginal statement makes it seem. Alot of years the two leagues are almost identical.

Also, for what its worth, the AL also has two less teams than the NL. So that could also have an impact on that specific stat. I guess my point is that the fact that the AL has a slightly higher average isnt a direct cause of the DH like the article implies. It could be due to a number of factors.

An average wouldn't be affected by the number of teams in the league. Home runs, hits, rbis, yes, but an average is compiled per at bat, so it would still match up, whether there were 20 teams or 200. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.142.96.233 (talk) 03:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, if I had to guess, the reason the BA went up is because pitches, who generally have low BAs, no longer bring down the average in the Junior Circuit. --Rabbethan 20:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History Of the DH

The authors of this article have it slightly wrong on the history of the DH. The rule was first implemented in a semi-pro league in Lakewood, Ohio circa 1966 or 1967 for purposes of adding some excitement and offense to the game as pitchers were previously dominating the game with a 17" mound. This same league experimented with a wild card hitter and wild card runner. I won't bore everyone with the rule details, but the three were closely watched and monitored by the American League and the Cleveland Indians in particular. The commissioner of that league who is credited with the DH's introduction was Roger E. Schwenkel. Charlie Finley came later and while it is true he was a proponent of the DH, he really was a johnny come lately. I know this first hand because I played in that league and later at Southern Cal.

68.92.218.182 05:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC)shemp 01/16, 2007

[edit] Official Rule

The author states that only the pitcher may be DHd for. I believe this to be untrue, but I can't find any sort of source to prove it. Can anyone find anything?

The definitive source is MLB's Official Baseball Rules, which states in Rule 6.10(b):

A hitter may be designated to bat for the starting pitcher and all subsequent pitchers in any game without otherwise affecting the status of the pitcher(s) in the game.

Nowhere does it state a DH may bat for a position player.--Highway99 00:31, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mauer moving from DH to Catcher not only instance this century

User Locarno's example shows where there has been more than one instance of a team losing its DH this century. The Yankees have done this a few times in fact. The reason was to use the defensive talents of the DH player at the time in the field, since he was the best defender at the position. In doing so, the pitcher (for the Yankees Mariano Rivera) was placed in the batting order. However, Yankees mgr Joe Torre had Rivera in a double switch and placed him at the back of the lineup.

The reasoning was that though the team loses the offensive power of the DH if the pitcher is forced to bat, by the time the pitcher got up to bat the team would have had to automatically score several runs before his place in the batting order came up...only adding to their lead.

I think this circumstance should be noted as a possibly strategic move. Arnabdas 15:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name change

Should we change the name of this article to "Designated Hitter rule" and have "Designated Hitter" redirect here? This article is sounding more and more like a discussion on the rule and ongoing debate than on the player position.--75.92.214.41 (talk) 14:49, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merging designated hitter statistics

I think that MLB designated hitter statistics should be merged into this section, as it gives the first DH for each team and many other famous DH firsts. If I can receive some semblance of consensus on this, I will move it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradenkeith (talk • contribs) 16:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)