Talk:Desiderius Erasmus

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==Note== - someone has typed "hola - love abbey" on the page, I don't know how to change this and did not know where else to type.

Contents

[edit] Intro

I think it needs expandedBjfcool 13:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I tried to add some balance to this blatantly Lutheran biased article. I changed the sentence "Erasmus was influential on Martin Luther who admired him and desired his friendship." to read "Erasmus's earlier writings were influential on Martin Luther who admired him and desired his friendship. Erasmus ultimately condemned Martin Luther's works." This change is based on the Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05510b.htm

Both Alexmarion and myself (below - sorry about not signing) the problems with the "Preparation for Death" quotation. I see it has been restored without comment. Can the restorer explain to us why the commentary around this quotation is not purely polemical? What is remotely scholarly or factual about saying that "no true Catholic could possibly have penned the following words" What is this based on? There is certainly no citation here. And the line "He was not a Roman Catholic in his heart?" How can that possibly be anything other than pure conjecture? I have removed it again. Rymac 19:59, 17 May 2006 165.127.196.68

The section on "Preparation for Death" is so obviously just an attempt to make Erasmus into a disloyal Catholic and a Lutheran. The quotation from Erasmus on how it is possible to be saved without the sacraments and that those with the sacraments can be damned merely reflects ancient Catholic wisdom, and was expanded further by St. Thomas Aquinas. The assertion that the passage proves that Erasmus "was not a Roman Catholic in his heart" is dishonest and absurd. I have deleted the section since it doesn't really make sense where it is in the article, anyway.


Should there be more mention of his role in traditionally considered to have established, if not popularized (at least in the Western world, as there are earlier, more thorough examples of such in Korea over 200 years ago in the creation of the Tripitaka Koreana) the practice and ideas of Textual criticism, aside from a very brief line saying that he prepared a new text of the New Testament? See also Textus receptus. Orangefoodie 12:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

This writer is flaunting his anti-catholic bias at the expense of historical accuracy by repeatedly suggesting that Erasmus was some sort of independant Reformer (because he can hardly deny that Erasmus condemned Luther and all other Reformer he mentions in his works), in the face of even of all of the quotes and works of Erasmus he cites that he admits show him to be a faithful son of the Catholic Church (although looked upon initially with suspicion by many ecclesiastics, whom he was openly critical of, anyway, so no surprise there). Then, to cap things off, he blows all decency intellectual honesty to the wind in misrepresenting Catholic doctrine and Erasmus' true faith, explicitly:

[In his own words, written in the little tract of 1533, "Preparation for Death", he verifies that, although he remained a Roman Catholic until his death, he was definitely not a Roman Catholic in his heart, for no true Catholic could possibly have penned the following words:

"I believe there are many not absolved by the priest, not having taken the Eucharist, not having been anointed, not having received Christian burial, who rest in peace. While many who have had all the rites of the Church and have been buried next to the altar, have gone to hell . . . Flee to His wounds and you will be safe." (Erasmus in "Treatise On Preparation For Death."]

Erasmus, here, is simply eloquently and piously (and very catholically) restating an axiom of every religion that has ever existed, namely, that actions speak louder than words... --Alexmarison 06:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


This article reads like the first paragraph is missing. How about starting with a brief summary of who Erasmus was and what he did, (and when he lived), before getting into the details of his birthname and place.



Does anyone really call him 'of Rotterdam'? It took me a minute to be sure that it was the same person. After all, he had a perfectly good first name - 'Desiderius'.

see:

Erasmus of Rotterdam, the Man and the Scholar : Proceedings of the Symposium Held at the Erasmus University, Rotterdam, 9-11 November 1986 by J. Sperna Weiland (Editor), W. Th. M. Frijhoff (Editor), J. spern Weiland


hmmm. looks suspiciously dutch-speaking to *me*. But then I'm an Amurican, and, admittedly, not a specialist in early modern Europe. On Amazon the only hit 'Erasmus of Rotterdam' turns up as first version is the Penguin "Praise of Folly", while Desiderius Erasmus turns up many more, including the collected works coming out of Toronto University Press. Google turns up 4,910 hits on 'desiderius erasmus' vs. 2,510 on 'erasmus of rotterdam'. Those things said, I am generally agnostic about nomenclature - I believe strongly in redirects. Leave him here or move him. --MichaelTinkler
I was going to say that the Rotterdam is superfluous, since just Erasmus is normally enough, but my "Essential Erasmus" calls him E of R...JHK
My 2000 print of "Praise of Folly" has both 'Desiderius Erasmus'and 'Erasmus' on the front page. Another book about him calls him E of R just sideways; other than that it's all Erasmus. Even though I was born in Rotterdam, and know where to find his statue :), I would not use E of R. here, it's just not the first name people call him by.--TK
Regardless of how we address him, though, Erasmus of Rotterdam is what he went by. A look at the salutations from Allen's Latin edition of his letters will prove that. A brief selection from 1519, with the original Latin and my own (loose) English translation:

ERASMVS ROTERDAMVS D. MARTINO BRVXELLENSI S. D. - Erasmus of Rotterdam wishes health for D. Martin of Bruxellensis (Brussels?).
ILLVSTRISS. SAXONIAE DVCI FRIDERICO ERASMVS ROTEROD. S. P. - Erasmus of Rotterdam wishes great health for the most famous Duke of Saxony, Frederick.
ERASMVS ROTE. D. MARTINO LVTERIO. - Erasmus of Rotterdam to Dr. Martin Luther.
--Dd42 02:33, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

Talk from List of famous Dutch people, discussing on the move of the pages:

Jheijmans, why do you think that Erasmus of Rotterdam will be clearer than the previous description Desiderius Erasmus? Just curious... link is identical.

Good question. I thought that because his name was listed as such in Wikipedia, it would be the best name, but after checking, I discovered that there's some (unresolved?) discussion on this at Talk:Erasmus of Rotterdam. Anyway, I thought the "of Rotterdam" in Latin was unnecessary. I'll try to find what his best known name in English is, that's where the article (and this link) should be. Jeronimo
Looked into the topic some more, and it appears that he is best known (in English) as simply "Erasmus". If anything else is said, it's "Desiderius Erasmus". However, as Erasmus is still free (and in fact a redirect to Erasmus of Rotterdam), I'll move him there. Jeronimo
Although it was common in the middle ages to pick the name of one's hometown as a last name, appointing Erasmus to 'Erasmus of Rotterdam'seems an obsolete reference to me. Shouldn't Erasmus name speak for itself like the names Paracelsus and Nostradamus do ? - --84.87.5.13 12:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

This article is copied from [1], a URL which says "© 2001" at the bottom of it. Does anyone know if we have permission to use this? Kingturtle 05:25 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

Looks like a copyvio. Needs a heavy rewrite anyway.
Could revert to an earlier version before the IEP content was introduced. Jeff

"Institutio Principis Christiani (Basel, 1516), written as advice to the young king Charles of Spain, later the emperor Charles V. Here Erasmus applies the same general principles of honor and sincerity to the special functions of the Prince, whom he represents throughout as the servant of the people. "

Should probably be contrasted to The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli which is his advice to the Medicis, written at almost exactly the same time, but with quite opposite advice.  ;-)

[edit] The last man who knew everthing: a 15th c. man, from the Netherlands

I just read in the followup slashdot for Larry Sanger's memoirs, that Erasmus may be the last man to have been considered capable of knowing all of the worlds knowledge (translated New Testament on his own), etc. I tried following up this hint from slashdot with some searches, but ... Is my guess anywhere correct? Clues, 15th c. man, from the Netherlands, is the hint. If so, the slashdotter says this is missing from the WP article, and broadly hints this could be Erasmus. Ancheta Wis 01:39, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have also heard Aristotle and John Stuart Mill put forward as candidates for being the last man familiar with every aspect of their culture's knowledge. I think it's a bit too trivial a debate to bother resolving, even for Wikipedia.--KJJ 01:30, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

-- Translating the New Testament is does not make one a polymath. This is entirely in keeping with his activities as one of the founders of humanism, and not very difficult for a Greek scholar. --24.128.151.54 02:27, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not in the slighest justified!!! I really object to these sorts of labels - no-one in the 1st century knew "all that was to be known", let alone anyone in the 16th c. It's just a-historical. Hackloon 02:54, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch "Translation" of Praise of Folly

In the main text, when the Praise of Folly is mentioned, a Dutch translation is given in parentheses, i.e. as if the original were in Dutch. The original is in Latin, but has a Greek title, "Moriae Encomium", a pun on his friend More's name. In Latin, the title would be "Stultitiae Laus". --24.128.151.54 02:30, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually Moriae Encomium is a Greek title with Latin inflexion :). Encomium was frequently used as an equivalent of Laus.Kameal (talk) 11:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Erasmus born in Gouda?

I heard on the news that Erasmus was born in Gouda,Is this true?

Make this shorter.

[edit] Influence on Luther?

Nitpicking, I suppose, but I really don't think it can be fair to say that Erasmus was THE inspiration for Martin Luther. How can this article simply say that this is known as fact? Perhaps rejigging the wording to 'thought to have been an influence on Martin Luther'? As far as I am aware, the influences on Martin Luther varied from personal convictions about indulgences and contrition to outrage at the papacy, and even individuals (it could be argued) such as Huss. However, recent historical debate has pointed out that Luther was not heavily influenced by the humanists such as Erasmus at all. Indeed, Erasmus was apathetic towards Luther, and Erasmus's great friend Thomas More (a notable humanist) described Luther as a 'pig'. In light of all this I strongly wish to see this introduction changed.

The debate concerning Luther and Erasmus has been raging ever since the Reformation itself. Luther is my specialist subject, and I have dealt extensively with the realtionship between Luther and Erasmus. Whilst the popular saying "Erasmus laid the egg whihc Luther hatched" has a ring of truth to it; it must be remembered that the crux of the matter is that Erasmus wished to reform ecclesiastical abuses within the Catholic Church, whereas Luther fundamentally attacked the doctrine (although his 1517 95 theses dealt with indulgences). Also, although letters from the very early years of the Reformation show cordial and admiring correspomdemce between the two, they differed in many areas, and were antagonists following the 1525 Bondage of the Will debates. I consider that the author of this article has a very rose tinted view of the realtionship between these two great men.

El

[edit] Not the real Erasamus

The Erasamus of this article is largely a figment of the imagination of some Lutheran trying to co-opt Erasamus for his own cause.

Please sign your posts, Handmaiden. Erasmus was a major player in the Protestant Reformation, and his writings gave a lot of support to the Protestants, no matter which side he followed. For one thing, the fact that his works were on the Catholic Index is important, as a note of that.--Prosfilaes 04:42, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by Joceyln1600 (and POV)

Opinions on the edits of Jocelyn1600, anyone? (You can see the diff here: [2])

I enquire, as a number of the edits result in significant changing of some of the facts without references. For example, prior to their edits, part of the article read:

"The Catholic Counter-Reformation movement often condemned Erasmus as being worse than Luther himself, and as having "laid the egg that hatched the Reformation.""

After their edits, it read:

"The Catholic Counter-Reformation movement was often condemned by Erasmus as having "laid the egg that hatched the Reformation.""

In addition, I feel their edits to the article adds a distinct fundamentalist (and anti-Catholic) POV. (See, for example, their commentary to the last paragraph on his writings.) I don't wish to just revert the article (as was done to their edits to Textus Receptus and Comma Johanneum), as I am not an Erasmus scholar, however their edits (given both their changing of the meaning of lines, as well as the reverting of their other edits in articles related to the subject) seem questionable to me. Opinions? 156.34.221.174 15:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The Counter-Reformation is generally considered a response to criticisms of the Catholic Church made during the Protestant Reformation. Which came first: the Reformation or the egg? Kineticman 03:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

There is no question that they got the causality backwards. The Counter-Reformation started after Erasmus had died in 1536. Ergo, it was the Counter-Reformation that condemned Erasmus (which it definitely did), not the other way around.66.82.9.76 20:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

On the general question of Erasmus' position vis-a-vis Protestant versus Catholic, the answer is tricky, because Erasmus refused to take sides. His comment here is useful (and I'll probably botch the quote, but the sense is correct): "There is nothing I congratulate myself more heartily for than never having joined a sect." Nevertheless, when push came to shove, Erasmus declared his loyalty to the Catholic Church. I think he's best characterized as a ferocious but loyal critic of the Church.66.82.9.76 20:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Julius Exclusus e Coelo

Deleted this part.

  • "In 1516, Erasmus anonymously published a satiric dialogue, Julius Exclusus, in which Pope Julius II is turned away from the gates of Heaven by St. Peter."
    • This is heavily disputed by scholars: see James D. Tracy, "Erasmus Becomes a German", Renaissance Quarterly, Vol. 21, No. 3, (Autumn, 1968). This highlights that while he does claim to have a copy of the text in 1516 he later writes to Thomas More that it was not he who wrote it. (ie. that he knew of it and may even have helped to have it published but it is not necessarily his work) Jezze 23:39, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes?

Could someone (more knowledgeable then I) add some of his quotes? He's the one who said, "In The Land of The Blind, The One-Eyed Man Is King", isn't he?

[edit] Footnote

The quote about Erasmus's young man, "I have wooed you ..." has a source note leading us to Duke University Press. First, I would like to read the work referenced, and second, someone else might want to, too. Whether the Duke online archive doesn't go deep enough (1994?), or ... for some other reason, I could not find the work directly. Before I resort to a snail mail inquiry, and another hour or day of online searching, could the contributor of this reference confirm the source, or show readers a better or longer trail? This is too delicious to be unavaiilable!

Lodgepole 16:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The quote is originally by way of the Collected Works of Erasmus, (University of Toronto translation) and I've changed the reference. Any Amazon or ABE book search will provide secondhand copies of the Duke book, while online Google Books allows limited viewing of a couple of pages, and eNotes the complete text for a fee. If you can't find it in a library near you, the correspondence of Erasmus will certainly be available, and will contain the referenced letter. Here's a fuller quote of that particular letter for you:

"So impossible is it, dear Servatius, that anything should suffice to wash away the cares of my spirit and cheer my heart when I am deprived of you, and you alone...But you, crueller than any tigress, can easily dissemble all this as if you had no care for your friend's well-being at all. Ah, heartless spirit! Alas, unnatural man!...But you yourself are surely aware what it is I beg of you, inasmuch as it was not for the sake of reward or out of a desire for any favour that I have wooed you both unhappily and relentlessly. What is it then? Why, that you love him who loves you."

Other letter passages are even more pleading and stick-a-sock-in-it pathetic: "...if I cannot acquire from you that friendship which hereafter I would most heartily desire, I request that at least the common intercourse of every day should exist between us. But if you think I should be denied this also, there is no reason for me to wish to live further."

In other words, NOT a happy bunny. And no, I wouldn't incorporate any more of the letter into main article. The existing phrase is sufficient to make its point, and for people to make their own assumptions based on their own point of view. As the letters are still considered an embarrassment by some scholars, or are dismissed as merely more examples of Erasmus's epistolary exercises, any further quotations are only likely to incite an edit war. (The letters are clearly written to be manipulative, but to consider them as as exercises is a huge stretch IMHO given the genuine emotion that seems to break through). An extreme example of how distressing some people find the issue of even a simple youthful infatuation can be seen here: <a href="http://www.erasmatazz.com/library/Erasmus_the_Hero/Not_Gay/Erasmus_was_not_gay.html">LINK</a>

Engleham 24 August 2006

[edit] Trivia

I once heard that Erasmus chosen name was Latinisation variation on his Dutch neem (Gerrit Gerritsen - Gerrit sounds close to the verb (be)geren = desire = desiderius. And something similar for Erasmus. Anyone knows this story, can substantiate it. Would be nice in the trivia section. Arnoutf 10:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Huizinga in Erasmus of Rotterdam says he was baptized as Erasmus (which was a name of popular saint, the one of the Fourteen Holy Helpers ) and later added Latin translation of Erasmus- Desiderius- a desired one Kameal (talk) 11:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Subheadings

It seems that some of the sections of the article have grown quite large without any subheadings; I am going to try adding some. Someone invested in the page is more than welcome to work over the scheme I devise-- the 'history' section is just huge without any subheads. --Matthew K 16:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birth name

Someone recently removed (and perhaps added) a reference to Erasmus' birth name being Gerrit Gerritszoon. I am just curious if this is relevant or if it does not matter at all whether it is reported here or not. --Matthew K 19:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I reverted the unexplained deletion. Google reveals it to be accurate. --Flex 19:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Please read Paul Johnson's History of Christianity, which actually bothers to include excerpts from Erasmus' published views: on Luther's alliances with state power; on Erasmus' opposition to Catholic doctrine on important points such as "just war" theory; and more broadly on Erasmus' opposition to the obsession of both the established church and Luther with refinements of theological doctrine. Erasmus very clearly stated on numerous occasions that there are mysteries better left unresolved by theology, but rather approached by individual believers through prayer and contemplation.

The article is grossly misleading in its portrayal of Erasmus as accepting of Church doctrine and practice. It should be either drastically edited by someone with better writing skills than I, or simply removed, as Erasmus is too important a figure (particularly in these times of fundamentalist revival) to be misrepresented or trivialized.

[edit] So how did he die?

I have read this article and I don't see any mention of the manner of Erasmus' death. I was somewhat interested to see that he died a year after Sir Thomas More. It's funny (in an ironic sense) that when someone like More is executed, that takes up half the article. Apparently, Erasmus was not executed, and because he wasn't executed, no one has thought to include how or where he died in this article. 4.155.99.46 04:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] bad link in "Selected Works"

Colloquia redirects to a definition of "colloquium," not an article about Erasmus' Colloquia. --Voskoboinikov 23:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does "early leaves" mean "early life"?

Does "early leaves" mean "early life"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.46.151.12 (talk) 22:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

That seems to have been changed by someone -- either it was an accident or vandalism. I changed it back to "Early life" the way it was about a month ago. Matthew K 04:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why removed?

I added these works to the article (05:54, 25 March 2007).

The Epistles of Erasmus: from his earliest letters to his fifty-first year arranged in order of time, 2 vols., by Francis Morgan Nichols, Longmans, Green and Co., London, vol.1- 1901 vol.2 - 1904 - The Internet Archive

They were subsequently removed by Stbalbach (00:07, 26 March 2007) who only offered as a reason for doing so this cryptic remark: "suggest author link here with specific books in book articles - internet archive has tons of books by and about erasmus." Could someone please decipher this? These are important primary source works and should be reinstated. Delta x 04:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need help

I admit that this may be more a query than a correction, but I turned to this page because I knew nothing about Erasmus, and however many times I read the following sentence I cannot for the life of me make it make sense: "Using humanist techniques he prepared pigs for love making to women new Latin and Greek editions of the New Testament [...]" Can somebody please explain this to me? The first part of the sentence seems to be suggesting that he was involved in some kind of early bestiality pornography, then the sentence abruptly switches to talking about scripture. I am genuinely baffled. Branfish 17:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I hope you may have come back and seen that someone edited out the piece of bestiality that some gnome placed into the article. This does happen in an open environment. PatPM 06:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC) PatPM

[edit] Inaccuracies

According to the introduction, his work "exposed inaccuracies [...] that would be influential in the Reformation". The idea that (percieved) inaccuracies in the Bible contributed to the reformation is wrong, and the idea that inaccuracies in Catholicism were involved in the Reformation is POV. 143.238.23.105 23:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC) Leon 23:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yo I may just be ignorant but whats with the part wher eit says Nipples Mipples Nipples ?

[edit] Erasmus "in love"?

I'm not sure what to make of the statement in the article that

Erasmus fell in love with a fellow monk.

Since no quotation marks are used, I presume this should be taken literally. The footnote then gives a reference to Huizinga, but it is unclear whether this should be considered as supportive or detrimental to the argument of Erasmus' homosexuality. If the English version is similar to the Dutch one, Huizinga in his "sensible comment" does not even mention the possibility that Erasmus may have been in love with Servatius in a literal sense. He says that from this piece of early correspondence, Erasmus appears to be "sentimental" and "a young man of a more than feminine hypersensitivity" who "strikes all the chords of a glowing lover" (Erasmus, p. 12, Dutch print of 1947); but Huizinga does not hint at homosexuality. He goes on to say that, contrary to what has often been thought, the feelings Erasmus expressed should probably be considered genuine. He then mentions the 'fashionability' of sentimental friendship in the cultured classes of that day and refers to earlier examples in correspondence between monks dating from as early of the 12th century, and to the fact that intimate friendships, often accompanied by very close observation of the other's inner emotions, were a trait typical of the Devotio Moderna (p. 13). I do admit that Erasmus' words seem to indicate something very much like a real love affair, but Huizinga's passage can not be taken as an argument in support of this. Iblardi 21:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Autodidact?

I've been told that Erasmus taught himself Greek because no one in the West could undestand it (or at least, because they were so rare that he couldn't get one to teach him) . Is this true? If so, shouldn't it be in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.118.102.38 (talk) 18:03, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

According to Huizinga, he probably had a teacher, although this is not completely clear. He made a laborious study of it, that much is certain. Iblardi 19:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Huizinga quotes Erasmus complaining that the only man in Paris who claimed himself to know Greek was actually a total ignorant of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kameal (talk • contribs) 11:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] references

Can someone assist me in listing the reference for the quote I added at the very end of the article. Tried different ways, but none get the job done. Reference is The Low Countries by Eugene Rachlis, Life World Library, pg 145. Thank You--Buster7 (talk) 12:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

A reference to that booklet alone is not enough; you should specify from which of Erasmus' writings the text came. Note that his last words were not "Believe God" but "Lieve God", something which is widely known. This constituted a piece of vandalism which you reinstated with your last revert. Iblardi (talk) 16:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Re-instatement of "Lieve God" was inadvertant. Didn't notice it till now. BTW...Its not a booklet, as you call it. The quote by Erasmus is a valid, forwarding idea for all ages. Rather than fight about its inclusion, you (the scholar) should help verifying it. You are needlessly asking for a reference for my reference...rather than working for the quality of the article.--Buster7 (talk) 17:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, what reference does Rachlis give? I am not saying that the idea sounds un-Erasmian, I just have grown suspicious of your edits. But if you give that reference we can restore the quotation. Iblardi (talk) 17:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Found it myself and restored the citation. Iblardi (talk) 18:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)