Talk:Deshengmen

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While I do not doubt the accuracy of the translation from Manchu, it is unlikely that the name Deshengmen is itself a translation from the Manchu title. The gate is an extant structure built during the Ming Dynasty, by which time the name "Desheng" had already stuck. According to [1], the '德' was specifically selected as an auspicious homophone of the otherwise literal "得胜", which means "to triumph." --Taoster

I know that in this case, the Manchu name is most likely a translation of the Chinese, but I am not sure that the character 德 was chosen because its sounds like 得. The article you quoted sounds more like a collection of popular history to me. Read this [2] for instance, which is a page from an archive in Beijing. --Niohe 01:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Besides Moral Triumph is much weaker than Triumph by Virtue. 德 is usually translated as 'virtue' in English.--Niohe 11:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

That article says nothing of the origins of the name. Furthermore, both 'virtue' and 'morality' have more or less the same meaning in this context, and so can be used interchangeably. As for the homophone theory, take a look at the corresponding Chinese Wikipedia article. --Taoster 10:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the best way is to find an academic source or two as to how the name is usually translated into English? --Sumple (Talk) 10:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't want this to become just another semantics debate, but usually 德 is translated into "virtue" in English. Morality is a very vague and general term referring to moral princples, whereas virtue refers to the quality of a person or a group of persons. Presumably the emperors that sanctioned the name of the gate were referring to the virtues of themselves and their rule - not to morality in general. When I have time, I will go and check book on old Beijing, I'll keep you posted.--Niohe 12:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I just checked the Ming Veritable Records (明實錄), according to juan 35 for the first year of the Hongwu reign, the name of the gate was changed from Jiandemen 建德門 (Gate of establishing virtue) to Deshengmen on October 12, 1368. In other words, the change of name implied that the Ming had triumphed over Yuan because of its superior virtue. The Manchus were indeed good translators from Chinese. --Niohe 16:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)