Talk:Descent of Elizabeth II from Cerdic
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Is "descent" used in this context by genealogists or something? Or is it a British English thing? Anyone I know (US) would say "descendants", and my "British English A to Zed" doesn't mention a difference. Niteowlneils 05:58, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I know that those in the U.S. do not use "descendants" to refer to ancestors! The page title is a normal use of the word: the page shows the descent of Elizabeth II from the early Kings in Britain. There's no U.S./U.K. language divide at work here<g>. - Nunh-huh 06:04, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's her descent from a particular ancestor. The article should be something like Descent of Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom from Egbert of England (or something with fewer words). RickK 06:00, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
"Descent" is a standard geneaology term for a line of descent from an ancestor to a descendant. Descent of Elizabeth II is Descent of Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom from Egbert of England with fewer words. Adam 06:07, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
OK, my bad, reading closer I should have said "ancestors". And I am familiar with usages such as "of British descent" and "line of descent", but never bare "descent" like this. So genealogists use "descent" to specify that the list is just a single branch of the full "ancestor" tree, I guess? Seems confusing to this layman to have a word with a 'down'-ish prefix mean 'up' the family tree. The closest def in my dictionary is "your family origins, especially in relation to the country where your family came from: Today about 65,000 people of Chinese descent live in Santa Clara County., which to me implies this use really is specific to genealogists. Anyway, sounds like there's nothing that would be better, so I guess this is fine. (impressed by the fast response, BTW) Niteowlneils 06:28, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Finally figured out what title I would have expected: "Royal lineage of Queen Elizabeth II". Niteowlneils 06:43, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The difference is that Elizabeth has many royal ancestors, and it would be possible to create an ascending family tree with many branches to show them all. But she only has one descent in the direct royal line from the House of Wessex (or rather, she may have more than one, but this is the most direct one). Adam 06:54, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
this article should show her own (agnatic) family, not this highly selective mix.
[edit] Where is the logic?
Maybe I don't understand this because I am from the U.S., but I don't get the logic of this chart. If you are going to have a chart showing the royal descent of Queen Elizabeth II from one particular monarch, wouldn't it make more historical sense for that monarch to be William I? Or at least a line of descent that includes him? She is in fact descended from William I, as he is the father of Henry I, who married the descendant of the Saxon kings. Or to put it another way, the Saxon kings get in on the act only because a woman descended from them married someone who was already King -- Henry I. Henry I was king (and ultimately, Elizabeth II is Queen) because of Henry I's father, not because of his wife. The Saxon kings are an important part of history, but in terms of the ancestry of the current monarch, they are sort of a footnote. Of course, there could be 2 charts, one showing the descent from William I and the other from the Saxons, or one chart showing both, it wouldn't be too difficult because William I himself (and his wife) would be the only names that would have to be added. But to have one chart showing the royal ancestry of the Queen without including William I makes no sense to me. Zeutron 01:05, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I have now edited the existing chart into a "mockup" of a new chart showing the Queen's descent from William I, with changes to the introductory paragraphs reflecting the deletion of the Saxon kings from the chart. It can be seen here. Some information still has to be added and some of the spacing needs to be fixed so things line up right. I am not sure how it should be linked to what already exists, or even whether it should "go live" at all. I would appreciate any comments here or on my talk page. Zeutron 01:03, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
- Well, call me dense, and I too am from the USA, but The Queen is descended from MANY folks, and the original chart here shows descent from an English king even before William I.
- Charts showing her descent from William I are a dime-a-dozen and most folks with any knowledge of English history could draw one from memory, but this one shows an even more ancient ancestry and I, for one, find it more valuable for that reason. Her descent from William I is not especially unusual, for Marie Antoinette, Ferdinand and Isabella, the Habsburg Holy Roman Emperors and the present-day Kings of Spain, Sweden, Norway and Belgium, as well as the present-day Queens of the Netherlands and Denmark, the present Princes of Monaco and Liechtenstein, and the Grand Duke of Luxemburg are also descended from William I. I say leave this chart along -- it is more valuable as it stands. --StanZegel 03:08, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] A better line?
Please note that there is another article, Direct descent from William I to Elizabeth II, that shows the descent from William I along the senior primogeniture line (not for example through the illegitimate line of John of Gaunt) that addresses many of the points above. It also has additional sections showing the linkage of the Normans back further to Alfred and the other Saxon kings. NoSeptember 19:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Name
I think that this article needs a better, more concise name... Names can be general, but this is far too general. Charles 19:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
