Talk:Dershowitz-Finkelstein Affair/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

some anonymous jackalope cut this from the text:" Finkelstein is a figure of some controversy himself, having been accused of Holocaust denial and Revisionism, and in some cases, anti-semitism. " with the comment "removed polemics from dissapointed irgun sympathiser". I don't know enough to say if its true or not, but I would like to hear from those who do. JackLynch 23:53, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

About the allegation that Finkelstein is a Holocaust denier: he himself acknowledges that such accusations have been made -- see this interview for example. Accusations of "revisionism", on the other hand, are problematic: to historians, at least, calling another historian a "revisionist" is like accusing a scholar of being a "studier" -- almost all would proudly acknowledge such a label. (See Historical revisionism.) --Mirv 23:56, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Ok then, so shouldn't the text be restored? JackLynch 00:00, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)


Great work Mirv JackLynch 00:01, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The comment was deleted becuase it was added by Leumi (who incidently named themselves after Irgun) purely for polemical flavor.
Who made the comment is unimportant -- it is true that Finkelstein has been accused of Holocaust denial, as he himself acknowledges -- and disliking the person who wrote a sentence is not a valid reason for removing that sentence; please stop doing so. However ridiculous it may be to accuse the child of Holocaust survivors of Holocaust denial (and he is not a Holocaust denier in the conventional sense of the word -- see the previously-linked interview), the fact remains that such allegations have been made. --Mirv 00:22, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
he is not a holocaust denier in any sense
It is said that he has been accused of it, not that he is. We are not dealing with the validity of the accusation. Furthermore, I am not named after the Irgun, it was not added for polemical flavor, and stop your incessant personal attacks, which amount to polemics themselves, and debate on the issues. -Leumi

I don't think we should be dealing with the validity of the accusations, which may or may not carry weight, as that is an issue without any one definitive scholarly viewpoint and this is an encyclopedia, not a courtroom. As such, I request that the user 81.130.75.224 (The same one who removed the text on the mentioning the accusations earlier and the one who is continually attacking me personally as an "Irgun" sympathizer) stop constantly reverting to his perspective of events and state his case in a calm, reasonable manner.

-Leumi
stop removing factual information
I think we should mention, for necessary context, that Finkelstein denies the allegations: some "Holocaust deniers" wear the label proudly, while he does not. --Mirv 00:48, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
81.130.75.224 (and I advise you acquire a User Name if you intend to continue here for anything other than calling me names), the facts you refer to are not relevant to the article. The one about him being the child of survivors belongs on his biography page, Norman Finkelstein, and the other deals with the validity of the accusations, an issue of which is not something we should be dealing with on an encyclopedia, as there is not as of yet any definitive factual position on that.

Mirv, I agree that we should mention that he denies the allegations, but the latter matter I don't think has much relevance to the case, as one can be a Holocaust Denier, via delegitimization, and not wear the label proudly. Furthermore, it doesn't seem to be something we can factually verify. Bravo on proposing the compromise, however and suggesting we add that he denies it. -Leumi

Excellent. I've added his denial of the accusations and a reference for it, also a mention of the book that started the furor. --Mirv 00:58, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
If the FACT that he is a child of Holocaust surviors doesn't belong on this page, then the ACCUSATION that he is a Holocaust denier certainly does not.
It is a FACT that he has been ACCUSED and this page is to deal with his ACCUSATIONS of Alan Dershowitz, so that spots a certain flaw in your LOGIC. Furthermore, the FACT that he is a child of holocaust survivors is about him, not the Dershowitz-Finkelstein affair and therefore goes only on his biography! -Leumi
There is more information on this entry about Finkelstein being accused of being a Holocaust denier etc than anything to do with Dershowitz-Finkelstein Affair.
I think the accusations do belong here. Finkelstein has been involved in a number of public controversies centering around Jews and Israel before, so mention of his previous record is relevant to another public argument centering around the same subject. --Mirv 01:11, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I agree wholeheartedly Mirv. I've just reverted the accusations that whatever his name is deleted again! This is getting old... -Leumi
The accusation is only relvant when put in context - either mention of the accusation together with the fact that he is a child of holocaust survivors - or no mention at all. Otherwise, the article becomes about something else.
The fact that he is a child of Holocaust survivors is more than clear in his biography, which someone who wished further knowledge on this will refer to. It is not relevant to the topic which is his accusations against Alan Dershowitz. The accusations against him are necessary to put his accusations in context. -Leumi
Oooo, a lovely little edit war, how nice! Let's see:
-- Leumi, if you want to write that the ADL made some accusation you have to prove that they made it. Show us where the ADL accused NF of Holocaust denial. I bet you can't.
-- If we are going to mention accusations (however idiotic) against Finkelstein, why not accusations against Dershowitz? Let's write that he has been accused of dual loyalties, professional hypocrisy, of proposing the use of torture, and of urging Israel to commit crimes against humanity. After all, "this is not a courtroom" so the truth of the accusations doesn't matter. Deal?
-- What is really missing from this page is some reference to Dershowitz's reply to the plagiarism charges. It ought to be given similar length to the accusations themselves.
--Zero 01:26, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Welcome Zero! To our lovely little tea party of fire! ;) 1. The claim that the ADL made the accusation was 81.130.75.224's, not mine. I only added that other groups made that claim. However you make a good point. I haven't seen any verification of his claim, and will remove it till he can supply it, as I too have some doubts on the veracity of that claim. Thankyou for pointing that out. 2.Accusations against Finkelstein are necessary to put Finkelstein's accusations against Dershowitz, which is what this article is about, in context. Furthermore, your exaggeration of these accusations, some of which are not carried by a significant enough amount of people to register here, is not necessary and counterproductive. 3. You're absolutely right. That is missing, and I have been looking for it and intend to put it up later. Thankyou again Zero. Simply lovely to have you on board this discussion.-Leumi

Contents

Dershowitz Vrs. Finkelstein

I was unfamiliar with this subject until just recently, and only came to investigate this page because of all the reverts. I since have learned quite a bit, including that basically nobody who knows much about these guys is unbiased. I brought it up w a jewish friend of mine, and she gave me the impression that she might like to give mr. finkelstein a thrashing personally. In fact, she got so steamed up at the mere mention of him that it seemed wise to change topics ASAP. My point is that maybe this page needs to be locked by a sysop. Maybe we need to put some basic info, some balanced links, and just leave it for the reader to investigate further. To be honest, the more I learn, the more even I start to want to have some kinda bias, even if I'm not sure who to cheer for yet ;) JackLynch 19:10, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

*chuckles* Any topic related to the mid-east tends to do that to oneself, I think. Or topics in general, some people say. Should you study any one side for too long you will either take on the characteristics of that side or those directly opposed. One of those funny quirks of the human brain, I think. I disagree, however that this page should be locked. If we were to lock all pages that make our blood boil then we wouldn't have much of anything to edit. The principles of Wikipedia center on debate, and locking this page from debate completely would go contrary to those principles. Bravo, however on taking the time to research the various positions and it's excellent you're looking for a solution, even if I disagree with the one you suggested. -Leumi
  • removed personal attacks, as allowed by rules (checked with sysop on that*
Note- Leumi removes legitimate criticism and calls it a personal attack, and as another user said, her contributions bring shame on Wikipedia.


Okay, I think everything seems to be in order in my book. You agree 168...? Leumi

Hu..whuh? I haven't read anything on this talk page except the question above, the posting of which I only noticed because I put the Affair article on my watchlist this afternoon. The editing of the article seems have coasted to a halt, which makes it seem like there's no controversy left to hash out. Given that, and given that the article seems neutral to me, I propose to delve no further into whatever the fuss was about. Well, actually I can't say I didn't notice somewhere that an issue was whether accusations were fair to quote as such. Given the credibility and prominence of the accusers in this case (assuming it's the ADL, as I read someone write somewhere) I think it is indeed reasonable to mention them. But anyone who is bristly about the accusers or the accusations I think would have some grounds to demand that the accusers be named. Still, I think the accusations are worthy of mention and that it's fair to mention them.168... 03:07, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The article, as it stands, seems fairly balanced to me; it contains background on both parties to supplement the current controversy. However, 81 has taken it upon him/herself to remove all mention of past accusations leveled against Finkelstein while retaining all charges against Dershowitz. 81, why don't you explain your actions. (I've reverted the page to 168...'s last edit.) --Mirv 06:47, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I have entered facts about Dershowitz, whereas you seem to believe false allegations are more worthy of inclusion
My complaint was that you removed all background material on Finkelstein. Allegations of Holocaust denial by the Anti-Defamation League, which is, as I have said before, a major public voice, are worthy of inclusion -- as are Dershowitz's past sins. Charges against Finkelstein, true or no, are also facts, even if you don't like them. Also please pay more attention to what I say: I did not claim that the allegations against Finkelstein were more worthy of inclusion, only that if the article is to give relevant background on one party, it should give relevant background on both. --Mirv 07:07, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Both are now included
Jim-dandy. Thanks for being reasonable. --Mirv

Isn't it about time that someone actually identified a single person or organization that says Finkelstein is a Holocaust denier? The only thing I can find is that Finkelstein accused Deborah Lipstadt of making this accusation and Lipstadt denied it. --Zero 07:50, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The Anti-Defamation League explicitly called Finkelstein a "Holocaust denier" in a letter to Georgetown U., duly linked to from Finkelstein's bio. ---Mirv 07:53, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)


Re: "Finkelstein has repeatedly ignored invitations by Dershowitz to dispute their accuracy."

"Accuracy" here refers to whether the people Dersh attributed words to indeed said exactly what he said they said. What else could it be understood to mean? 168... 09:01, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

round and round and round we go

I've snipped this piece of the debate transcript:

"To which Finkelstein said, "This is why lawyers have a bad reputation. Because you are playing a game now. I've read the book twice. In fact I've read the book six times because I've read Peters four times and yours twice that makes six times."

Why? We already know that Finkelstein thinks the book plagiarized; his opinion has been spelled out in the first paragraph, and this section of the transcript is incoherent. If you disagree, 81.I.really.wish.you'd.log.in, fire away. --Mirv 14:33, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The discussion has direct relevance to the article's subject,... unlike, for instance, the 'Holocaust Denier' libel - which for some reason is mentioned in EVERY article which connected to Finkelstein. It makes sense to mention things directly related to the subject. Logically, the Finkelstein quote belongs here whilst the Denier crap doesn't (BECAUSE IT IS MENTIONED IN EVERY ARTICLE CONNECTED TO FINK ALREADY)

Try reading carefully and responding to what I said before ranting about something entirely different. Repeated, this time in bold so the important bit will be easier to spot: We already know that Finkelstein thinks the book plagiarized; his opinion has been spelled out in the first paragraph, and this section of the transcript is incoherent. <—note: this is the important part. What Finkelstein is saying is one part repetition of his earlier charges -- that Dershowitz ripped off Peters -- and one part meaningless accusation of "playing a game", which he does not explain further. Also please stop SHOUTING thanks. --Mirv 14:55, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Given that 'Finkelstein=Denier' is repeated 3 times throughout Wikipedia, you seem to have a unusually selective attitude to repitition
Is there a difference between repeating information in different articles and repeating information in sequential paragraphs? I think so. The other half of my argument, which you seem to have overlooked (should I use an extra-large font? Blink tags? What would it take to get you to read it?) is that the section of the transcript that does not repeat the charge of plagiarism spelled out in the previous paragraph doesn't relate to the main issue of the article: it is simply an attack on Dershowitz; it has nothing to do with the book or the plagiarism therein. --Mirv 15:09, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Actually, Finks sentence refers to the numerical discrepancy, not the plagiarism charge, so it's not repetition. The 'Fink=Denier' thing obviously is though.
Please note which sentence I removed and try again. Thank you. Mirv
Also, the accusations against Finkelstein are necessary in pages dealing with his claims, views and himself as they provide a context to his views, and as such are perfectly legitimate. Leumi

81 has just completely deleted the entire page except for one link. This is patently ridiculous. I have noted that the page is now protected for discussion. Might I request that the previous version of the page be protected before 81's mass deletion, as obviously we will not leave it completely deleted like this and we will want to easily refer to it. Thankyou. Leumi 15:24, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The page is protected in a fairly reasonable state. Thanks.

In a reasonable state? There's absolutely nothing on it. How is that possibly reasonable?Leumi 15:27, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I wouldn't call it reasonable either, but I would call it fairly neutral. Which of the previous versions would be better is not up to me, it should be accomplished by some sort of consensus. - Hephaestos 15:29, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I am happy to work via consensus, but with the constant biased vandalism, I see the page as it is as a neutral compromise
If you don't like vandalism 81, then stop vandalizing. You constantly remove anything that is remotely critical of Finkelstein. An encyclopedia must be balanced and not only reflecting your worldview.Leumi 15:36, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I won't comment on the irony of your statement as you are probably right now deleting a quote on The Holocaust Industry page...
A: you talk the talk, but your walk-walking skills lack, yo -- the only standard you've applied consistently, here and elsewhere, is that the articles should say nothing bad about Finkelstein. 2: You blanked the page, yet you accuse others of vandalism. III: Sadly, you're right. Why don't you lay out your idea of a consistent standard for what to repeat, what not to repeat, what to include, and what to leave out? Mirv 15:38, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)


On the contrary. There is only one negative thing that anyone seems to have to say about Fink, and that's that he was accused by someone of being a Holocaust Denier. This single fact is being spread very thinly over three articles. I only wish people could look deeper at Fink so that they could find something a bit more tangibly critical of him. I would be happy if 'Fink=Denier' isn't endlessly repeated (it can have one home on one page).
Note also that I didn't say the link is to a neutral site. I somewhat suspect that it's heavily biased, but I haven't looked at it, nor do I care to. What's actually on the Wikipedia now contains neither defamatory language nor hagiography, however, and that works for me for now. As I said on Wikipedia:Protected page, if other admins who are more familiar with this particular edit war would like to revert to an earlier version, that's fine with me. But I'm not going to weed through and find something that I think suits, since I know next to nothing about the subject, and the edit war extends past the "last 50." I would expect when there's an edit war going on when I go to sleep, it would be resolved in some manner (if only by page protection) by the time I wake up, but perhaps I'm expecting too much. - Hephaestos 15:38, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The link is to an unvarnished transcript of discussion between Fink and Dersh - therefore it is entirely fair.
I disagree, the accusations are necessary here. However, I think we should include a short quote of Finkelstein's response to these accusations and restore the page back to what it was before with that as an addition. Is that an acceptable compromise?Leumi 15:55, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

(We don't seem to be able to reach a compromise here.) Alright then. Can you, 81, and you, Leumi, agree that the article should not repeat biographical information? This would include past accusations against Dershowitz as well. Or how something like this: "Finkelstein and Dershowitz have both been involved in previous controversies. See their separate biographies for more information." Agreeable? Mirv

I could agree to that principle, but sadly Leumi is starting his propoganda again on The Holocaust Industry page now (three negative quotes to one positive)
I think that while you definitely have a good idea there Mirv and we should make some sort of compromise, that particular one is not practical as if we want to give a balanced impression in the article, we need to include the accusations from both sides, because won't necessarily move onto the biographies and will leave with a false sense of the word "controversy" and the entire matter. I think both accusations should be included. They balance each other out. As for 81's attack on me here, I refuse to dignify it with a response and would appreciate it if he would stick to the issues. Leumi
(As would I.) I also think they balance each other out, providing context for both sides; however, 81 does not agree, hence the attempted compromise. Mirv 16:11, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
There is always a chance for one person not to agree, however when the majority thinks differently their opinion takes precedence as goes the principles of Democracy. I still think we should make a compromise however, but not by deleting all of it.Leumi 16:14, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
81, your thoughts? How much of the background on D and F would you be willing to keep? Mirv
The article is about the Dersh-Fink affair. It is not about Holocaust Denial or anything else. I would be happy with an article which just summarized the Dersh-Fink affdair, and nothing more. This is not going to happen though. Leumi's predjudices can't help rising to the surface. Any claims of 'providing context' are insincere on Leumi's part - just look at his The Holocaust Industry edits. He has a habit of providing very selective information and quotes to follow his agenda. Notice also that Elan Steinberg is Executive Director of the World Jewish Congress, Greville Janner is chairman of the Holocaust Educational Trust, while Raul Hilberg, probably the world's foremost historian of the Holocaust has been edited down to just 'Historian-Author Raul Hilberg'. Not only that, but the important parts of the quote have been removed. This is symptomatic of Leumi's less-than-humble attitude. Leumi seems incapable of discussing these matters reasonably. Notice his request to remove List of destroyed villages during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war on Wikipedia:Lists for deletion. Leumi iss purely ideologically driven, and does not belog on a site which should provide a haven of neutrality. Another user, User:Zero0000 notes "I will not work on this page any more as it is a waste of time. ... Leumi's long paragraph is just standard right-wing "bash the victims" stuff. ....two standard junk "quotations" from people who are so important that that the internet never heard of them except for endless regurgitation of these "quotations". (I bet nobody here can even prove they existed.) Having it there brings shame on Wikipedia, but with people around who think it is "scholarly" what is the point of trying to do anything about it?" I agreee that Leumi brings shame on Wikipedia. Leumi's propaganda drive meant that evetually 3 articles had mention that Fink was accused of Holocaust Denial - sometimes this claim took up half of the article, and had nothing to do with it. Any criticism he pretends is a personal attack so he can delete it.
81, those are personal attacks. They have no relevance to the topic at hand. And you raise a valid point that Raul Hilberg should be further clarified, I will do so. See how reasonable I can be? Welcome to compromise 81. It's a beautiful thing. I provided a very valid reason on Lists for Deletion why that should be deleted, as it was inaccurate and didn't have any use as it was made up entirely of links, almost none of which worked. However this is not the place to discuss that. The Holocaust Denial issues are necessary to add important context to the report.

Who deleted everything and then blocked edits?

I think thats terrible. Worst case scenario, really. An encyclopedia is to inform, not give a link to resources. Links (plural) are cool, but not instead of the article itself! Whats the deal? JackLynch 21:43, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I made an edit to the article, even though it was protected. As far as I know, we have no rule stating that no one is allowed to edit an article, when it is protected. Rather, it says sysops who were involved in an edit war on the article should not take advantage of the power to "get their way" in a protected article.

But, as always, I follow Uncle Ed's Rule of Geniality which says that if anyone objects to an edit I make to a protected article, I will gladly revert that edit. --Uncle Ed 21:58, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

It's now unprotected; I'm leaving my listing on Wikipedia:Protected pages for the time being though because the pessimist in me insists it will save time later. - Hephaestos 22:07, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The qualification of ADL allegations

Zero, the ADL did explain these allegations, which you would have seen if you had read to the bottom of this letter http://israel.georgetown.edu/ADL-letter.pdf , which I am adding to the links section. The explanations read as follows:

However, Mr. Finkelstein?s lecture was a one-sided program,

intended to promote hatred of Israel and perpetuate classic anti-Semitic stereotypes. In his highly publicized book, ?The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering,? Finkelstein argues that the Holocaust ?has become a straight-out extortion racket.? Finkelstein is well known for his anti-Israel rhetoric and his claims that Jews have exploited the Holocaust to make money. He has said that he ?truly honored? Hezbollah fighters from Lebanon for ?having inflicted an exceptional and deserving defeat on their foreign occupiers,? and that, ?I can?t imagine why Israel?s apologists would be offended by a comparison to the Gestapo.? To have Georgetown University provide a platform for a Holocaust denier to spread his hatred for Israel is profoundly disturbing to ADL. Finkelstein?s views about Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are widely known.

Now, can you please stop removing essential parts of the article? Leumi 02:46, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Like I thought, you can't give any examples at all. The above shows the ADL using the label "Holocaust denier" without giving a single example of Holocaust denial. Just like I said.--Zero 03:41, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It is not our business to decide the veracity of the accusations. We simply state facts, and the fact that the ADL has made this accusation, with examples they feel adequate, and is a major public voice, is enough to have it included.Leumi 03:52, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
They didn't even claim to be giving examples. They just used the label as a smear. You know that. You are using it for the same reason. --Zero 04:02, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
There's no need to get angry Zero. For your convenience, I've specified the examples they use in their accusation, since you seem to have missed them in what I posted above. "Mr. Finkelstein?s lecture was a one-sided program,

intended to promote hatred of Israel and perpetuate classic anti-Semitic stereotypes." shows their example on the anti-semitism charge. Second, the quotes, "claims that Jews have exploited the Holocaust to make money." and "I can?t imagine why Israel?s apologists would be offended by a comparison to the Gestapo." are their examples of what they view as Holocaust negationism (and remember we don't discuss the validity of them, only that they're there), and "He has said that he ?truly honored? Hezbollah fighters from Lebanon for ?having inflicted an exceptional and deserving defeat on their foreign occupiers,? " is the example of what they say about his incitement of violence against Israel. They have provided examples, and whatever you may think of their validity, that is not what we're discussing here.Leumi 04:13, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

What is "Holocaust negationism"? I thought holcaust denial was being discussed. The charges that you list above are not examples of holocaust denial. --snoyes 04:19, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The Negationism article in Wikipedia says it is "the denial of historic crimes. The word is derived from the French term négationnisme, which means Holocaust denial". I considered it a (later clarification: slightly broader)synonym. Do you object? Leumi 04:28, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The French word negationnisme was coined to mean Holocaust denial but its use in English is sometimes wider. Maybe Leumi is trying to play games with the words. The key point is that the ADL has never given any examples of Holocaust denial on the part of NF, and as far as anyone has shown here they never "even claimed to give examples". I don't believe such examples exist. --Zero 04:26, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I detailed the examples they provided above. As I said, it is not for us to decide whether the examples carry merit, only that they were given, which they were. Leumi 04:28, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Hmm. "it is not for us to decide whether the examples carry merit". I would tend to disagree with that statement. It is useful to point out if allegations are patently false, as they ammount to slander. Instead of being a holocaust denial, uttering the sentence "Jews have exploited the Holocaust to make money." shows that one believes that the holocaust did happen. Hence the accusations of being a holocaust denier are plain false. --snoyes 04:39, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
In the context I think ADL meant, "Holocaust Denial" referred to a broader matter of delegitimizing the Holocaust and what is viewed as it's unique role in history. As a form of compromise, perhaps Negationism, which I pointed out above, would be a better word for their accusations? Your thoughts?Leumi 04:42, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Denial is (quoting the m-w dictionary) "assertion that an allegation is false". Seeing as Negationism is a synonym, it is obviously not any better. Now we are dealing with an issue in which players such as the ADL have engineered the term "holocaust denial" to be much broader than mere denial. This with the intent to equate people who have legitimate criticisms with lunatics who deny that the holocaust happened. It is indeed difficult to phrase this correctly. I think the best is probably to address this (the 'normal' and the 'extended' definitions) in holocaust denial, and leave away the phrase that the ADL has not provided evidence of holocaust denial. Noting only that the ADL uses the expression in the broad/extended sense. --snoyes 04:59, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The letter doesn't really offer an explicit reason for their use of the term "Holocaust denier." The quotes aren't truly germane to that specific charge and the way the letter is structured doesn't make it clear to me that they think they are. Perhaps they issued an earlier statement about him? They say he is "known" to be one. 168... 04:29, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I will look for that. However for now, I think the text still qualifies as an example. One can dispute the accuracy of the example, but they obviously intended for it to be one, which is enough to qualify as providing one, as it was their intention. As I said before, we don't decide validity, only facts.Leumi 04:37, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Well, it's been suggested that the label "Holocaust denier" is being used by the ADL as a "smear", meaning that even the labellers don't believe it to be deserved but are using it anyway to achieve the goal of discrediting their adversary, who they oppose for some reason other than that he is a Holocaust denier (and oppose instead, for instance, because he is setting back the cause of obtaining reparations). The suggestion is not a priori false. What evidence do we have against? If it's false, the labeller either has a good reason or thinks that he or she has a good reason for applying the label to the labelee. I don't think we've seen evidence from the desk of the ADL for either. 168... 05:26, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)


The F quote regarding the $10k is a quip and not very pertinent. I don't think the D quote adds much either, without the explanation of what D means by "subphase." The paragraph is misleading also by implying that D had nothing else to say in defense of the mistake. The most important thing he had to say, and which I find utterly persuasive and don't see how anyone couldn't, was that the mistake could not have been intentional, because the bigger numbers would have only supported his argument better. Also, typos 'do' happen in publishing all the time, so that is not as far fetched a hypothesis as it is liable to seem to people who think of books as utterly professional. Finally, given this possible interpretation, it is non-neutral to say that what F showed is that D "changed" the numbers. D may not have been the one who put 2000 instead of 200,000, and whoever did I believe it was an honest mistake and not a willful act of transformation. So to my mind a change resulted, but was not made. That said, he still owes the $10k. 168... 15:12, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I suggest that you try not to get into a war over including information from another article. I realize that if it isnt important to the article, it shouldnt be included, but dont fight about it. Try spending more time writing other articles and doing other stuff for a while. Alexandros 18:40, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

psychologically disturbed Irgun sympathiser?

Who is 195.92.168.173 ? Are they the same as 81.130.175.55 ? Whoever you (they) are, will you please create an account(s)? Also, calling names (psychologically disturbed, for example) is unhelpful and not particularly scholarly. Thank you in advance for your much needed cooperation. JackLynch 19:58, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Indeed. Given the close nature of their speech, sentence structure, insults and ideology, I think it is reasonable to assume they are either compatriots, or the same person. Personal attacks, might I add, are illegal under the rules of Wikipedia, and furthermore not constructive. I respectfully ask you to stop them and apologize for what I'm sure was something you regret, done in the heat of a passionate argument. Oh, and this is Leumi. I forgot to log in. Sorry about that. Leumi 21:00, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Anonymous User, please stop attacking me personally. You recently put in the summary section the following "WARNING: LEUMI IS MAKING IDEOLOGICAL EDITS EVERYWHERE". That is highly unjustified, not in the spirit of proper debate, and without merit. I would like an apology please, but what's more important is for you to stop these personal insults. I thank you for your time. Leumi 23:48, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

In all fairness, we don't know for sure that Dershowitz wasn't deadly serious about the $10k, though it may seem obvious that he wasn't -- but "quip" is still prejudicial language, so I think "said that he would donate" or "offered to donate" would be a fairer representation. (Leumi, why not use his talk page?) --Mirv 23:50, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I suppose that will work. I did thing quip was a better manner of saying it, and that we could be reasonably sure it was his intention, given the sheer unlikeliness of him donating to the PLO ever under any circumstances. But I can definitely see how someone would have a problem with it, and it's by no means big enough to cause so much contreversy. No need to have a Stalingrad over such a slight difference, especially considering all the tank battles we've been having already. As for his user page, I wasn't aware he had one, as he is still operating only on an IP address and doesn't have a username. Leumi 00:06, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The remark I meant to refer to as a "quip" was Finkelstein's reply about lawyers. It's neither an argument or evidence or even really an accusation. It's just a retort that shows he thinks little of Dershowitz's defense and wasn't persuaded by it. Rather snarky too, I thought. 168... 01:16, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I agree it was rather snarky. Do you think we should use the word "quipped" in relation to that? As you first brought up the word, I'll follow your lead on that score.Leumi 01:19, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I don't think it necessary to characterize parts of the debate. Stick with the nice neutral "said" -- nobody can complain about that, and it's cleaner writing anyway. --Mirv 01:20, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Anonymon: Will you please explain your constant reversion of 168...'s edits? Thanks. --Mirv 01:02, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Anonymous User, I think that putting in the whole quote is too bulky, as it doesn't really have reference to what we're discussing in that paragraph, which is the issue of the numerical discrepancy. I do appreciate you stopping the reversions to the much earlier version though, and hope we won't have that problem again. Leumi 01:13, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Anonymous User, as a compromise between you and 168... will you accept the having the part on Dershowitz's "lightning rod" status kept, while keeping the rest of the controversy on him only in his bio? And is that acceptable to you as well 168...?I hope we can come to an agreement.Leumi 02:13, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Has Cockburn attacked Dershowitz before? Because I think that would be relevant. And Anonymous Prime, it's funny that you should complain about others' reversion-without-discussion when most of your edits have been carried out without a word of chatter -- something about a pot and a kettle springs to mind here. --Mirv 02:10, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I think perhaps a better question is whether Dershowitz has been attacked by palestinians advocates similar to and including Cockburn, as his support for Israel is the reason some people think Dershowitz was attacked, as opposed to a personal issue. I'll look for examples of that. And Anonymous, I respectfully think you should heed Mirv's words on that matter. Leumi 02:13, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Also to anonymous user, I, and I suspect others, felt that the language in 168...'s edits was sufficiently neutral. Could you detail why you changed it and why you feel yours is more neutral? Also, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but did you make those changes from scratch, because I think they resemble strongly an old version of the page. And there is no need to yell, and I have discussed it on the talk page, now and before this. Leumi 02:17, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

F's point about the page numbers is evidence that belongs with his accusation of plagiarism and prior to D's defense against the charge. To put it later makes the text longwinded and backandforthy and redundant and it makes D look like a talking parrot for repeating his defence while unfairly giving F the last word. The lightning rod status is not mere bio but is germane. I'll try to Google up prior Cockburn remarks about D, since I agree that would be germane too, if not even more so. The lawyer quip is very long and not worth the price of admission, I feel. In any event, a reiteration of the charge of plagiarism in the paraphrase that follows the quote is unnecessary and unfairly gives the prosecution the last word.168... 02:18, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

OK, I give up. But everyone should know that this page IS NOT NEUTRAL DUE TO LEUMI'S OBSESSIVE PARTISANSHIP.

So put an NPOV dispute header on it, and remember what I said about pots and kettles, and note that you reverted edits which Leumi did not make (the detailed exposition of the radio argument was mostly 168...'s), and try for constructive debate instead of name-calling ok thanx. --Mirv 02:35, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

No longer a problem

User 195.92.168.174 has finally been banned, having apparantly crossed a red line when he attacked a medical condition I have. Here is the report I made in the vandalism section, followed by the sysops mentioning that they banned him/her. While I will avoid commenting on whether I am please by this new event (you can guess) I will point out that we can now continue on in the editing of the article without one of the obstacles we had previously. I look forward to a more pleasant working environment. :)Leumi 02:58, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I added the original exact source text for the first example directly from the Royal Commission Report. Now readers can judge the example for themselves. My opinion is that it is pretty damning of both Peters and Dershowitz. Peters claims that the figure is "according to the British investigation" but the source clearly states it is Jewish tradition. (This is a representative sample of Peters in action.) Dershowitz has failed to correct this deception, so either he didn't consult the original text or he didn't care that he was misleading his readers. Further evidence is that he didn't notice that Peters' page numbers were incorrect. In fact all the quoted text appears on page 11 of the Report and none on page 12. Finally, no serious historian would ever quote a 1937 British document for a 16th century fact. If Peters was what she claims (i.e., not a mere propagandist) she would have consulted one of the specialist studies on Palestinian population, such as the study of Cohen and Lewis that uses the Ottoman taxation registers. --Zero 07:08, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

NPOV?

This sentence is ripe for the NPOV tutorial:

As a staunch defender of Israel, Dershowitz is a popular target of criticism by advocates for the Palestinians, whom both Finkelstein and Cockburn have championed in the past.

Now flip the adjectives ("staunch defender" and "advocate" could apply equally well to all three depending only on what connotation you wish to imply) and re-read:

As an advocate for Israel, Dershowitz is a popular target for criticism by staunch defenders of Palestinians, such as Finkelstein and Cockburn.

"Staunch defender" has a definite positive connotation, plus it implies that "Israel", like Dershowitz, is under constant harrowing attack that requires defending, whereas "the Palestinians" apparently don't have "defenders" only whiny "advocates". If we're going to characterize poeople who write on political topics, we can't use such bias in our word choice. DanKeshet

Point taken. Connotations can be subtle. But I would say this is a matter of interpretation. One might as well speak of "staunch defenders" of segregation and "advocates" for peace. I considered the words neutral when I wrote them and I still think they would be viewed as such by many readers. That said, if there's a way to do it that will work for more readers, I'm not opposed to changing them in principle.168... 18:57, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
So. . . why haven't you fixed it? :) (I don't know who wrote that sentence originally; if I did, I apologize and thank you for the help.) --MIRV 18:45, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I usually wait for an article to calm down for a few hours before editing it because I hate edit conflicts. Plus, the article is so terrible right now if I tried to edit just one paragraph, I'd be very frustrated. DanKeshet
Hey, please consider that the activity that you are waiting to calm or to cease in fact reflects somebody's or some group of people's hard and altruistically motivated efforts to make the article good, and not terrible. Consider also that it has been arrived at through a long process of compromise, which was necessary due to the sharply differing and strongly held perspectives of contributors who weren't initially able to see the issue from any other perspective than their own (i.e. before participating in discussion). 168... 19:05, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Sorry if it was harsh. The fact that I'm waiting for edits to die down doesn't mean I think it's bad people are editing it, just that I don't want to edit at the same time. There are definite improvements being made to the article. But while I see a lot of hard work, I disagree with the basic orientation of the article and all the phrase-NPOVing we do won't change that. This article is framed as a personal dispute between two men and not the evaluation of the scholarship of The Case for Israel. Even the name Dershowitz-Finkelstein Affair draws attention away from the scholarship and into the peculiars of the two men. DanKeshet 21:54, Dec 8, 2003 (UTC)
Apology accepted. The orientation you describe, which I'd say is accurate, I think is totally apt for an article of this one's title. I also think this article is an appropriate way to approach the subject. What we're dealing with is an accusation that a lot of people consider hyperbolic if not indeed undeserved. Furthermore, it's hardly the whole world that's after Dershowitz and scrutinizing what he's done. It's Finkelstein and Cockburn and readers they've inspired. But I believe a lot of people are also looking at Finkelstein to question his motives and scrutinize his specific accusations, because the latter don't square well with the labels he's used, such as "plagiarism" and "lies." There is an examples section to this article, which has material in the vein you seem to be talking about. That could be expanded. Or a second article with a different title could be created. But I think this one serves a reasonable purpose and is true to its title. By the way, you could edit offline and post your edits all at once if you don't like the thought of having to merge. 168... 22:11, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I changed it around a bit, noting that Dershowitz is strongly pro-Israel, which is indisputable -- possibly his more reprehensible views (like advocating collective punishment) could be mentioned, but that might be construed as bias also. "Advocates" is, I think, a reasonably neutral word. --MIRV 19:01, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I agree, now that it's been pointed out, that "defender" and "advocate" carry POV connotations, and I definitely think they should remain changed. Thanks for pointing that out. I do think we should use the same word though, in describing both Dershowitz's views and the advocates of the palestinians, thereby instead of "pro-israel views" I've changed it to "advocates for Israel". Thereby it provides more balance and equivilant phrasing. Also, since the word "turnspeak" was a variation on Orwell's "Newspeak" I think we should include that, to provide further context as to why he possibly may have attributed it to Orwell instead of Peters. Leumi 20:39, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Sayles Rudy

If somebody wants to quote a manual of style for an independent and authoritative perspective on what constitutes impropriety in academic scholarship, I think that would be a great idea. But I think Rudy adds nothing but bias to this article. I'm glad that someone found him at a university in Amherst, so that I do not have to consider Cockburn a fabulist, but I stand by the statement I made in summarizing my edit of him out of the article: He is no authority. Furthermore, he can not be assumed to be independent: His opinion was solicited by Cockburn. Finally, I consider it bad structure and unfair to Dershowitz to put Rudy's comments after D's reply to Cockburn. That reply is his defense to the very same charge that Rudy is making, which is just a sort of an elaboration of Cockburn's. Putting Rudy after D is giving him another whack with the same old stick. Furthermore, I believe the cultural custom is that the prosecution rests its case before the defense. The man has been accused, so let him make his defense, and let the jury decide.168... 00:30, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly 168... I propose we put the matter of Rudy's inclusion to a vote and abide by the majority opinion of those involved in the article. Reasonable?Leumi 00:45, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I was just studying Finkelstein's examples at this page and thought to check the one from Encyclopedia Britannica 1911.
Peters wrote: Persians […] Kurds…German `Templar' colonies […], a large Algerian element […] Sudanese, […] the Samaritan sect.
Dershowitz wrote: Kurds, German Templars, Persians, Sudanese, Algerians, Samaritans, Tatars, Georgians
Note that Dershowitz gave two that Peters did not, which would seem to suggest that Dershowitz did consult the source rather than just copying Peters. However, when I turned to the source here, I was unable to find either Tartars or Georgians there at all! The others are there. Dershowitz cheated for sure. By the way, notice what Peters left out of her proof that the population was highly mixed: The sedentary population of the country villages the fellahin, or agriculturistsis, on the whole, comparatively unmixed; but traces of various intrusive strains assert themselves.. That's about half the population Peters deliberately omitted. --Zero 14:05, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Look, the fact is it's not our job to decide whether or not he plagiarized. We're only here to put down the accusations, the responses and as I think it's said somewhere in the Wikipedia Rules the things that fit in with the constraints of "human knowledge". What that means in practice is that it doesn't matter if you or I think he plagiarized, or what proof we find, if that proof has not been used on a public forum as part of the issue. We're not writing about it, we're just reporting. Leumi 22:52, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Leumi, you added the following link to the article:

The article linked there is, in fact, about anti-Semitism, not Finkelstein. It mentions him once, as an "acolyte" of Noam Chomsky, on the tenth page, in one paragraph, which says nothing substantial about him or his views. Please explain. --MIRV 00:07, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I apologize. I intended to add that to a different article, not this one. My mistake. Leumi 00:23, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Then what link did you intend to add? Your edit summary, which matches the other edit you made to the page, also states "added additional link". --MIRV 00:26, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I did not intend to add any link. The link that I added was intended for the anti-semitism page. There's really no reason to make such a big deal of a minor mistake, which has already been fixed. Leumi 00:33, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I suppose it was an honest mistake, then. --MIRV, who thinks it's about time to archive this baby.