Talk:Derry City F.C.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Derry City F.C. article.
Article policies
Featured article star Derry City F.C. is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Selected content star Derry City F.C. is part of the random selection of content on Portal:Association football. An excerpt from this article regularly appears on the Portal's main page.

Contents

[edit] libelous Statements

Even though the club, to this day, still carries the reputation of being a nationalist-supported club with support coming in the main from Derry's nationalist community, the club itself, at odds with certain other clubs in Northern Ireland in the past, such as Linfield, has never employed a Catholics-only policy (or a Protestants-only policy in the case of Linfield) and has had both Protestants and Catholics sport the club's colours throughout its history.

If this section of text is continiously re-entered it wil be deleted. Linfield FC had no such policy. If these comments continue to be re-instated after deletion legal advice against Wikipedia will be sought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GCLFC (talk • contribs) 15:10, 27 December 2006

  • Was there an unnofficial policy of religious discrimination at Linfield? The ESPN article in the reference section claims that there was. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 22:14, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Safety concerns"? Please expand!

Quoth the article:

Derry City formerly played in the Irish Football League, but was forced to leave that league following the 1972-73 season because of safety concerns.

It would be constructive to expand on this. Whose safety did Derry's play in the Northern Irish league endanger and how? --Jfruh 18:52, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

For their own safety. Derry City left the Irish League for the Eircom League for near enough the same reason as Belfast Celtic disbanded - sectarian violence. --[[User:Unregistered] 15:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC) WHALEFER

Yeah i think your right, Derry City major support comes from a republican base, and i think the major issue was with Institute F.C. which was more of a unionist supported club. But i always have had the impression that Derry City was more or less forced out then leaving on their own accords. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Institue weren't around as a senior club when Derry left the Irish League or joined the League of Ireland. They were only elected to the IL in 2000 or so. In any case they are a very small club so no security issue really applies to them. Derry leaving the Irish League had to do with the Brandywell area being a virtual warzone in the early 1970s and unionist supported teams (which was everyone else except Cliftonville) refusing to travel there. The IFA then ruled that the Brandywell didn't qualify as a senior football venue so teams would not have to travel there. Derry had to play in Coleraine (a unionist town) for a couple of years but then gave it up in 1973 until 1985 when they were elected into the newly created 1st division of the LOI. Jdorney

Ahh ok. that makes sence now. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] better late than never...

This article covers things extremely well in my view: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=325744&cc=3436
cheers. SeanMack 13:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Location and League

I think this section should be excised or (preferably) split into a separate article. It bears only tangential relevance to Derry City and the status of the UK clubs cited is not comparable to that of Derry, as they do not cross international borders. DublinDilettante 16:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree that this section looks and feels totally out of place. Dodge 12:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

We can assume that that will be the end of the Candystripe's European adventure for this season!

Totally POV so I deleted it.

Nick M 25th of August 2006

Ahh!!! Ye of little faith! wait til thursday night!!

[edit] Club colours

Any idea where the red and white stripes originated?--134.226.1.194 17:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


Sheffield united apparently - can't remember the whole story but a former sheff utd player came over and playes or was manager of City and they adopted the "Candystripes"

The comment on the kit's similarity to that of Aston Villa's at one stage has been re-instated, and I acknowledge that the Club's history page (cited) says the same thing, but unless there is a statement contemporary to that change of kit assigning significance to such similarity it is no more relevant than its similarity to the colours of West Ham, Scunthorpe, Burnley, Weymouth or Chesham Utd. Kevin McE 18:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The reference says "similar to Aston Villa", there's nothing to suggest Aston Villa inspired the kit. Oldelpaso 18:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The same would apply to the black and gold kit: just like Cambridge Utd, Barnet, ... Kevin McE 20:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I suppose the links are implied, but I understand that it isn't expressly stated anywhere that the jerseys were inspired by Aston Villa and later Wolves, so I'll delete any mention of those clubs. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 20:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent anon edits

In responce to the following comment on my talk page:

"Can you please stop removing important information regarding Derry City F.C. from the page? If you refuse to stop this childish behaviour I may be forced to report you to the powers-that-be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnfullerton (talk • contribs) 2006-10-15T18:54:50"

My recent edits on this article have been in response to a request for assistance on one of the admin notice boards. My main edits have had suitable edit summaries, but to sum things up:

  1. I couldn't care less which photo goes where, but when anon editors change that they need to do so with care and not remove other valid edits.
  2. The "Location and league" section is pure nonsense and does not belong in the article. It is inaccurate, original research and unsourced.
  3. The list of supporter fan clubs is not encyclopedic (see WP:NOT for starters)
  4. There are far too many external links, links which do not enhance the article or are unreliable sources (see WP:EL.

Based on this I have remade the majority of those edits, but leaving the photos alone. Please note that a number of editors of this article would also seem (evidence being their reverts) to agree with my viewpoint. Thanks/wangi 20:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I have since deleted Image:Derrypsg.jpg as a copyright violition (not as claimed a PD photo taken by Johnfullerton). Thanks/wangi 12:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jose Mokendi

Does anybody know; should his surname be spelled 'Mokendi' or 'Mukendi' (like his son spells his surname)? Why is there confusion/a difference?--Johnfullerton 19:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

See [[Talk:Marc_Mukendi here]. Cheers SeanMack 13:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
He's a character shrouded in a tremendous amount of mystery. Simply, who knows?--Johnfullerton 12:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] League split in two

What exactly did this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry_City_F.C.#endnote_4) entail?--134.226.1.194 15:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] David Tennant

I see no reason to delete David Tennant from the list of notable supporters. Tennant attended the Brandywell for a game in the past year to offer his support as his grandfather, Archie McLeod, played for the club in by-gone days. I have also seen a photo of him sporting a Derry City scarf. I'm sure that qualifies as supporting the club in some way or another, if even just financially in a minor way. Even so, since then he has joined the City Exiles Supporters Club.--Johnfullerton 20:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. Assuming the pic isn't photoshopped;-) , seems like proof to me anyway. I won't remove it again. You got a reference for the exiles supporters club? Would be no harm to stick it if you did. Cheers SeanMack 10:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
One of the members of the Exiles SC mentioned the fact on Derry City Chat.--Johnfullerton 10:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, a chat site wouldn't be good enough to use as a reference according to WP:RS. Cheers SeanMack 11:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm aware of that. I was just obliging. I don't think it's necessary to rely on a post from a chat site for reference anyway if there is a photo of the man wearing a City scarf in the Brandywell.--Johnfullerton 12:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not a chat site!!!! It's a football supporters forum!!

Whatever you want to call it, it doesn't meet requirements of WP:RS. SeanMack 11:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
It looks like a chat site to me. The name gives it away. Anyhow, are photographs accepted as sources?--Johnfullerton 12:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guidelines and to-do list

Here are some guidelines as to how the article may be improved from members of WikiProject Football:

The reasons that the article is not A-class includes amongst others:

  • Recentism in history section. The years 1928–1985 (57 years) is covered in about half the text that the years 1985–2006 (21 years) are covered in.
  • Many unsourced "controversial" or "non-obvious" sentences. For example "Even though the club, to this day, still carries the reputation of being a nationalist-supported club with support coming in the main from Derry's nationalist community".
  • Using far too many fair use or missing license images. And remove the sponsor images, they provide no more info to the article than text does.
  • There really is no need to list other clubs that play in leagues of a country which they do not come from. What has FC Vaduz to do with Derry City?
  • Far too many lists.
  • Trivia section should be incorporated in other sections.
All in all, the article is a good B-class article, but much needs to be done before it is A-class. I suggest you take a look at articles on clubs that are featured, such as Arsenal F.C., Everton F.C., Manchester City F.C., Sheffield Wednesday F.C. and IFK Göteborg to get ideas on how to get the article further up on the assessment ladder.

– Elisson • T • C • 11:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Derry City F.C. is a pretty good article, it is better referenced than most and looks fairly comprehensive, but the criteria to be considered A-class are pretty stringent. To be A-class, an article must be somewhere between good article and featured article standard. A class articles are likely to have undergone a process such as peer review. As it stands now, the article probably isn't too far off GA, "B" looks a fair assessment.

– Oldelpaso 09:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree with all the points Elisson makes about the article. A couple of additional points:

  • The bit about UEFA coefficients looks to be mainly about Irish football in general rather than Derry specifically, and should probably be removed, though a sentence or two could be moved to the "European football" section.
  • The large number of subheadings disrupts the flow of the article, merging some of the sections may be beneficial.
  • A list of notable former players is entirely subjective unless there is specific criteria for inclusion. Notable supporters is a verifiability nightmare, the consensus in similar cases in the past has generally been that is someone's support for a club is truly notable it should be mentioned in the article of that individual rather than that of the club.
  • Current season transfers should not be included, that is the remit of Wikinews rather than Wikipedia.
The article is progressing well, it has reached a stage where refinement is the priority rather than expansion.

– Oldelpaso 15:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a query; does anyone have or know where I could obtain a copy of Frank Curran's Derry City Story (Donegal Democrat, 1986)?

To-do list (include the following in article):

  • A greater account of Derry’s early history.
Who founded the club?
Why were the colours black and amber originally chosen and what style was the jersey?
What ground did Derry use whilst playing in Coleraine? Was it the Showgrounds?
  • Information on past crests and a note of description and history on each of them.
  • Reference and provide source for article's claims of Derry being a largely nationalist-supported club.
  • All notable players and articles based on their careers.
Where was Harris Chueu from?
  • All past shirt sponsors and kit providers along with dates of seasons they sponsored the team or supplied jerseys.
Did Le Coq Sportif ever supply a kit? For some reason I think they did.
  • A list of all past managers and managerial records if available.
  • Statistics on highest goalscorers and record number of appearances, et cetera.
  • Full details of the Brandywell.
Details on the current agreement (or lack thereof) with the Derry City Council.
A history of the Brandywell.
When was it built and opened for use?
What is the record attendance?
Stadium plans.
  • A full list of all international players to have played for Derry including the number of caps they each won.
How many caps did Tony O'Doherty, Jackie Hennessy, Johnny McKenzie, Jim McLaughlin and Jose Mukendi each win?
  • Are there any further references in general/pop culture?
  • Notes of information on some of the main supporters' clubs.
  • Possibly include supporter songs and lyrics in the supporters section if they are deemed encyclopaedic.
  • Maybe include a graphical timeline of major events in the club's history along with a 'dream team' as voted for by fans (if such a vote has ever taken place). See West Ham United, for example.
  • Past away-kit variations.
  • More information, such as records, standings and a graph, on Derry's past in the Irish League. Use:
  • Give mention to Derry players who were league top scorers during certain seasons in the history section. Information available at the website of the Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation for both Irish League and League of Ireland.
  • Standardise the format of all references. Put dates in brackets.
  • Why exactly did the IFA want to prevent Derry from playing their European game at the Brandywell?
  • Had Derry always been semi-professional until a few seasons ago?
  • Any idea if the score of the 1936 IFA Cup final was definitely 2-0 to Linfield. I've seen some websites that claim it went to a reply, while another said the score was 2-1, with Jimmy Kelly scoring.
  • Did Martin O'Neill ever play for Derry? Some websites claim that he did. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 00:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


This article is becoming a monster! Perhaps consideration should be given to splitting the document into a number of smaller pages? Also some serious quality control is required, if "notable players" include the likes of Kwame Crudden and Lee Molyneux (amongst others) - players who only played a very minor role in the club and made limited first-team appearances.


– (Niallc99 16:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Merge

The Brandywell section needs to be merged into the article. The section is fairly redundant with the article as it is. Also what is the use of having a article on the stadium if you going to but the majority of focus on it in the article about the team. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 02:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The standard football club manual of style insists on the inclusion of a section in any club's article dealing with that club's stadium. However, I do see your point in that the information contained within both the section and the article are much the same. Possibly, the section could focus more on the club's relationship with the Brandywell, as well as other stadiums it might have once used as home grounds, while the article could be directed away from a club-focus? Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 13:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Umm yeah, that would work. I think, just the impression that i get, thats what the progect was going for. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 02:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Address and contact information

I have removed this from the article as is it not deemed to be encyclopeadic:

Brandywell Stadium,
Lone Moor Road,
Derry,
BT48 9HZ.

Telephone: 028 7128 1333
Fax: 028 7128 1334 Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 23:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Supporter user-box

I have created a user-box for supporters who use Wikipedia:

DCFC
This user supports
Derry City F.C.




You can enter the following on your user-page for the box to appear there: {{User Derry City F.C. supporter}} Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 15:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You should remove the logo - the fair use policy forbids the use of fair use images in User: space. Oldelpaso 20:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Issues raised while going through the article

Fuelled by the support of the large, enthusiastic crowds returning to the Brandywell to witness local senior football after a period of deprivation, as well as a hunger for success after an FAI Cup final defeat in 1988 to Dundalk, Jim McLaughlin helped the club to an historic treble — the League Cup, the League Title and the FAI Cup — in the 1988–89 season. - This implies that the treble win was mostly due to the first two things. There are three ideas here, the crowds, the FAI Cup final, and the treble. Each should have its own sentence. All clubs are expected to have a hunger for success, so no need to write that. How about: The return of senior football to Brandywell attracted large enthusiastic crowds.(ref) The club reached the 1988 FAI Cup final, but lost to Dundalk. The following season Jim McLaughlin's side won a [historic] treble — the League Cup, the League Title and the FAI Cup. If another team had previously won the treble, omit "historic". (All IMHO of course) Oldelpaso 20:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Supporters section:

  • upon the club's entry into the League of Ireland in 1985, crowds of nearly 10,000 regularly flocked to the Brandywell to see their team - this is contradicted lower down where the record crowd is listed as 9,800.
  • are regarded as being one of the largest, noisiest and most colourful groups following a team in the eircom League.[84] the reference doesn't mention any of this.
  • are known to bring substantial numbers to away games, despite their isolation in the north-west. Vague and unreferenced.
  • Despite the perception of Derry City being a nationalist-supported club, it does have numerous supporters who would be of a Protestant upbringing, although large numbers of the Protestant community in the city would simply ignore the club, while others would go as far to attack the club as a symbol of Catholicism or nationalism. Starting with "despite" makes this sound defensive. The "would"s look like an aim for neutrality, but obfuscate the meaning. I read it as meaning Protestant supporters exist but are a small minority, that the Protestant community is largely apathetic, and that there is a degree of antipathy toward the club from some for sectarian reasons. Whether this interpretation is correct or incorrect, the paragraph needs more clarity. Oldelpaso 21:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Should the club's name in Irish be bolded? I've removed some of the statements you highlighted above and hopefully the text about Protestant opinion of the club is OK now. The "nearly 10,000" figure is referenced and I assume it means anywhere from 9,000 or so up, which, although quite general, would keep the statement factual and allow for figures below the 9,800 threshold. This article also mentions a general figure of 10,000 having attended the Brandywell in the past. What do you think? Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 20:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I think (but am not certain) that italics are normally used. The troublesome word for the crowd numbers is regularly. Do you have any figures for average attendances in this period? Its a minor point though. Oldelpaso 18:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Attendance figures and details are rather scarce, unfortunately. I've removed the word "regularly". I've been trying to chop unnecessary words out of each section. The lead has been shortened to two paragraphs and the colours, crests and records sections are concise and to the point. I've tidied up the stadium section and used only free photos. The supporters section is quite large but I think that those details are important. I haven't included notable supporters. Should I keep them out? I recall you felt that the club article wasn't the place for such facts. The only photo in the article that needs sorted is the squad photo.
The history section remains my main worry. It's still quite long, although I've divided it into three parts. The section in full deals with the following issues: the club's founding, naming and move into the Brandywell; successes and prominent European outings as well as the issue of suspected sectarianism surrounding the 1965–66 game; the effects of the Troubles on the club; the "wilderness years"; entry into the League of Ireland, the unique no-police policy and early success; modern success; modern lows, near-bankruptcy and the response to save the club, as well as the Liam Coyle-Carles Puyol anecdote; near-relegation; Liam Coyle's retirement (brief mention as he is commonly viewed as the club's best ever player); first Irish club to be awarded a UEFA licence; introduction of full-time football; the 2006 UEFA Cup run (the club's most successful season in Europe ever); recent successes; qualification for the Setanta Cup, and the return of those from unionist backgrounds to the Brandywell; success under Kenny; and a disappointing dip under Fenlon.
I understand that the modern highs and lows section is lengthy and leaves me open to being accused of recentism, but I do feel that most of the issues mentioned, however recent, are still as important events in the club's history as many of the other events mentioned. As the article notes; most teams' journeys to the Brandywell were of little consequence up until 1969. Just because significant events occurred more recently than others doesn't mean they should be side-stepped for the sake of avoiding recentism. How close do you feel the article is to FA status now? Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits

I'm contemplating re-inserting a note (maybe a footnote) on the competitive return of unionist-supported teams to the Brandywell as it is quite a significant milestone in the club's history. What do others think? Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 17:08, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popular culture section

Some of the items seem trivial mentions, so I've moved them here. A What happened next appearance, a TV show using a mug as a prop, and a local press April Fools joke aren't things which have a lasting impact. Oldelpaso 17:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Start of moved material A bizarre own-goal, in which the opposition goal-keeper was lobbed from outside the box by a player from his own team, scored by Finn Harps' Terry Leake for Derry City during a 1989–90 season Brandywell-meeting once appeared on the "What happened next?" round of the BBC's A Question of Sport.[1]

In addition, during an 8 January 2007 episode of RTÉ's The Panel, Irish comedian, Karl Spain, was seen drinking from a mug displaying the crest of Derry City. Although Spain himself is not known to be a fan of Derry, one of the shows producers, Seamus Cassidy from Derry, is. During the next show one week later, fellow comedian, Dara O'Briain, was also seen drinking from the mug. On 22 January 2007 the mug was seen in the hands of a third panellist, Irish television and radio personality, Ray D'Arcy.[2][1]

Moreover, the club has appeared in a joke perpetrated by local printed press outlet, the Derry Journal, who once reported that Gary Lineker had signed for Derry. However, the date of the publication was 1 April, and the story was an April Fools' prank. End of moved material

[edit] Lead

Last comments before I add my support to the FAC, I promise. Does "Red and White Army" refer to the club or its supporters? I would have presumed the latter.

I've attempted a rewrite of the bit which read "This era came to an end in 1972 when they left the league after the Irish Football Association, having earlier banned the use of their ground due to security fears over the Troubles in the Brandywell area and demanded they play their "home" games outside of Derry and in Coleraine, requested they continue playing there despite the unsustainability of the arrangement and the fact that security forces had ruled the area around their home safe enough to re-stage football." - it was one heck of a mouthful (try reading it aloud), and didn't make it clear which of Coleraine or Brandywell the club were requested to continue playing in. Oldelpaso 20:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Cheers. I suppose "Red and White Army" can mean either or both. In the following article, it is used to refer to the team: [1]. Here, however, it refers to the fans of the club: [2]. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 20:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
If it's OK, I'm just going to re-mention the unsustainability of the Coleraine arrangement as that was also a major factor in the club's ultimate withdrawal from the Irish League. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 20:58, 21 May 2007 (UTC)