Talk:Dennis Brown

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[edit] Crack addict?

1. The text of this article categorically states that Dennis Brown was a crack addict. I'm not sure that this can be substantiated with supporting evidence. If not then I feel this damaging sentence should be removed.

2. There is an external link titled 'Possible Crack use and Aids rumours' that links to a page from UA Journal. Within the page Joshua Blood is quoted as stating that "Brown actually died of AIDS-related pneumonia". Again I don't believe that this has ever been proven. I recall reading at the time that Dennis Brown's cause of death was 'respiratory failure'. I did read that there was to be a post-mortem to ascertain Brown's cause of death, but if there was such a post-mortem I don't think the results have been made public. Again, Joshua Blood's comment can only be taken as 'rumour' without any supporting evidence. In addition all four links from the UA Journal page are broken links. For these reasons I believe that this unreliable and unsubstantiated external link should be removed.

3. Lastly, I'm a little curious as to why individuals posting on this article seem so determined to paint Dennis Brown as a drug addict. Dennis Brown enriched the lives of literally millions of people around the world. If he did indeed succumb to the scourge of Cocaine that swept Jamaica in the 80's I can see no benefit in mentioning that here. Why can't he be remembered with respect and thanks for the massively positive contribution that he made ?

RIP Dennis Brown.

--85.210.57.59 14:13, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Additionally I think that the 'Cocaine Usage' external link is also completely without proven foundation and should be removed. In this link we have somebody called John Darnielle (who I've never heard of) from a group called The Mountain Goats (who I've never heard of) being asked why he had written 'A Song for Dennis Brown'. He replies that he had read about Dennis's death and alleged drug usage, particularly in the last two years of his life. When asked if he had ever met Dennis predictably he replies 'No'. So here we have somebody commenting about Dennis's alleged drug use who has never met him, and yet his words are linked to from this page as if they are 100% accurate and reliable. As this link only contains the opinions of an individual without any shred of evidence to support them, then I think this is best described as 'rumour' and as such should be removed from this page. Again I can't understand why individuals here are surfing the net researching evidence of Dennis's alleged drug taking, and then presenting such completely unproven accounts as evidence of it. As I asked before, what can possibly be gained from attempting to damage the reputation of Dennis Brown ?

Respect to Dennis Brown. RIP DEB.

--85.210.43.214 18:16, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The All Music Guide, which I think we can all agree is a fairly reputable source, flatly states he used cocaine: "Perhaps it was to maintain this output that Brown first started using cocaine. Addiction eventually followed, and with it inevitable bodily ravages. Still, few expected it to end in his death. But on July 1, 1999, the unconscious singer was rushed to a Kingston hospital with a collapsed lung. This is not usually a fatal condition, but Brown was so weakened from drug use that he expired on the table." [1] Gamaliel 18:30, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

In this case there can be no doubt that wikipedia have not got it wrong, and it is abundantly sourced elsewhere too. Dennis Brown sadly is not a living person any more as if he were it would be a much more sensitive case, SqueakBox 18:35, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the UA Journal link, I am not aware of any evidence in the public domain to support Joshua B's claim that Dennis Brown died of 'AIDS related pneumonia'. By linking to this source Wikipedia is merely supporting a 'rumour' and not a fact. Consequently Wikipedia has got it wrong in this case and the link should be removed.

The fact that Dennis Brown is no longer alive does not prevent this being a sensitive case. I'm still at a loss to understand why you feel the need to post links that can only damage Dennis Brown's reputation. Have you considered the feelings of his family and friends ?

--85.210.43.214 18:57, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

As for the All Music Guide being 100% reliable, I'm not sure I can agree with you on that. I did try and look at their entry on Dennis Brown but that is only possible by enrolling. Presumably articles in All Music Guide are written by (mostly) independent writers who I'm quite sure are capable of making mistakes. The documentation of Reggae music is littered with factual errors.

--85.210.43.214 18:57, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I was able to read the entire AMG bio without logging in, and in any case registration is free. We cannot dismiss a reputable source such as the AMG merely based on the claims of an anonymous editor. Gamaliel 19:02, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I certainly don't want to disrespect Dennis Brown or cause distress to his family and friends. The distress in this case is a direct result of cocaine and I honestly believe bringing it out into the opening will maybe sstop young (and not so young) people of today not get hooked into the same path. Crack cocaine is a really miserable drug which likely played a leading factor in his death as it does in those of all heavy crack users who die prematurely. In this case crack destroyed a great talent and I firmly believe such a tragedy deserves to be documented in this encyclopedia, SqueakBox 01:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Gamaliel - I did manage to check Dennis Brown's bio on AMG. Predictably it didn't take too long to find a mistake. In the first paragraph the writer says that 'No man is an Island' was originally by the Impressions, when in fact it was by the Van Dykes. To read of how producer Derrick Harriott taught the young Dennis Brown the lyrics to 'No man is an Island', please refer to this link ; Derrick Harriott recalls a young Dennis Brown To be fair though the AMG bio is not too bad, although I don't think you should rely on anything on AMG being accurate, merely because it is on AMG. As for my being an anonymous editor, that maybe true, as it is for most of the people posting here. You're not really called Gamaliel are you ? Anyway, back to the point in hand. Can the unreliable and unsubstantiated external links that I mentioned above please be removed ?

Respect to Dennis Brown.

--RIP DEB 05:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not anonymous, I'm pseudonymous, but my real name is floating out there. Regardless, you are correct, I also should not be used as a source to counter the information in AMG.

I have found errors in AMG before as well. Any source, no matter how reputable, will have errors. But I am not going to automatically assume that this particular fact is in error with no evidence to the contrary presented. Gamaliel 05:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Gamaliel - Are you saying that describing someone as 'addicted to Crack Cocaine' is acceptable on Wikipedia without any supporting evidence ? Shouldn't the onus be on the people making these claims to support them with facts ? Why is the opinion of a virtually unknown American folk artist linked to as if it were fact ? Why is the link to UA Journal allowed when there is no evidence to support Joshua Blood's claim that Dennis Brown died of 'AIDS related pneumonia'. Why is Wikipedia accepting these articles as 100% reliable without any supporting evidence at all ? Isn't this just character assasination ? Isn't Wikipedia supposed to be an impartial, fact-based reference work ?

--RIP DEB 06:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I was only speaking to the matter of using AMG as a source. I did not comment on any of the other matters. Gamaliel 06:45, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

RIP DEB - the role of Wikipedia editors is to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. In this instance, we have one or more "reliable sources" and many less reliable sources that all agree on one fact, that the subject became addicted to a bad drug, and that it affected his career and his health. In this case, we could perhaps softern the text by saying, "According to many sources..." That leaves the matter more open to interpretation, and those who doubt the assertion are not confronted with an asserted truth. No one doubts that the subject was a great musician and a national hero, or that his life was tragically short. Cheers, -Will Beback 07:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Will BeBack - I appreciate you 'softening' the text to read 'According to several sources', although I think 'According to some sources' might have been better. It would have been more convincing to have linked to some of these sources that have been verified by Wikipedia for their reliability. I certainly can't find too many reliable, verifiable sources to support that view. I'm talking about sites stating facts rather than third-hand hearsay.

I'm still really concerned about two of those external links as well. As I've said before, in the UA Journal link Joshua B (Blood) says that Brown died of 'AIDS related pneumonia'. As far as I know this has never been proved in the public domain. If there was a post-mortem into Brown's death I don't think the results have been made public. As far as I can see Joshua B's statement cannot be supported by the known facts, and therefore the external link to the UA Journal should be removed. Incidentally, in case anyone is interested, Joshua B (Blood) was (and possibly still is) an employee of Heartbeat records, who did release some Dennis Brown material. With that in mind I think his comments were totally inappropriate. He should have shown Dennis Brown and his family a great deal more loyalty and consideration.

As for the external link to 'The Mountain Goats', I can't really believe that Wikipedia are prepared to allow this external link to stay in place. The Dennis Brown content is minimal in the extreme, and as I said before, just the opinion of one individual who chose to write a song about Dennis Brown. Has anyone verified that the content on this page is accurate and can be supported with evidence ?

--RIP DEB 06:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mountain Goats

I'm afraid I just don't see what all the fuss is about regarding the Mountain Goats interview, which I've only just now read. It's an interesting perspective from the pov of a respected musician who wrote a song about Brown, that's all, and as long as we don't rely on it as a source of historical data on Brown's life, I don't see any harm in including it in the external links section. Gamaliel 19:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia page about Dennis Brown is marred by the insistence of Gamaliel to include a link to an interview with somebody called John Darnell(?) from a group called the Mountain Goats (?) who happens to have recorded a track about Dennis Brown and his alleged drug use. I think this link is unnecesary and disrespectful. I'm assuming that John Darnell (?) didn't meet Dennis Brown so I wonder why he thinks he's qualified to comment on his alleged drug use. Yet Gamaliel insists that a link to John Darnell's (?) song should be included and repeatedly and very stubbornly keeps putting it back after I remove it. Funnily enough he accuses me of edit warring when he is obviously also guilty of edit warring. Anyway, I'd like to repeat what I said before, as follows;

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dennis_Brown/Comments" RIP DEB 20:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no interest in portraying Brown in any particular way and I'll note that on Wikipedia it is considered quite uncivil to cast aspersions on the motives of others based upon nothing more than your imagination. See Wikipedia:Assume good faith.

As has been repeatedly noted here, Darnell is not being used as a source of factual information in this article, nor should he be. But the fact is that a significant musical artist wrote a song about Brown and that should be noted here, as it is standard practice in many Wikipedia articles to note significant cultural works about the subjects of articles. I'm sorry apparently you find the song "disrepsectful" but that is not sufficent reason to exise this factual information. If you have a reliable source that says this song is disrespectful and/or inaccurate, you can include that in the article to rebut whatever it is that you feel is disrespectful about the song. Gamaliel (Orwellian Cyber hell master) 22:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

To me it seems fair enough to mention the Mountain Goats song in the article since it's a) factual, and b) The Mountain Goats appear to meet Wikipedia's notability criteria, but the link to the interview seems to be broken, and I would argue that the interview is not relevant anyway. Brown was commemorated and paid tribute to by a number of artists, both during his lifetime and after his death, for example the album of Brown covers by Gregory Isaacs and the British Reggae All Stars tribute are perhaps more relevant. The double mention of the Mountain Goats in this article comes across as a plug for them rather than as a significant contribution to the subject of the article itself, whether or not that was the intention.--Michig 11:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Michig, many thanks for your constructive input. I have removed the broken link to the John Darnell interview, which I hope is acceptable. You make a very valid point, the reference to the Mountain Goats song strikes me as no more than a plug for the album. I can't really understand why Gamaliel feels it is so important to retain this reference. Incidentally, I listened to the 'Song for Dennis Brown' last night. It was really terrible, not a patch on anything performed by Dennis Brown himself, but of course that's just my opinion.

Gamaliel, it's interesting that I have to provide a source that says the song is 'disrespectful' (apologies for my earlier typo). I would have thought the emphasis should be on John Darnelle (or maybe a Wikepedia editor) to provide a reliable source supporting the lyrics of his song. I found this quote from Wikepedia's founder, Jimmy Wales; "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." I wonder if this also applies to dead people ? After all, who is going to protect them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.178.56 (talk • contribs)

You don't understand his statement at all. If Darnell is being used as a source of factual information for the article, then Jimbo's statement applies. Any source of factual information for the article must be absolutely reliable and Darnell or his song lyrics would not qualify. But no one is suggesting that Darnell be used as a source of factual information for the article. We are merely noting the indisputable fact that he wrote a song about Brown. The content of his song is not an issue, since we are merely noting its existence. Gamaliel (Orwellian Cyber hell master) 18:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Gamaliel, thanks for clarifying that.RIP DEB 19:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not about honoring the memories of great men, it is about documenting history and culture in an accurate and neutral way. I'm sorry you feel the song is insulting, it may very well be, but that is simply not a valid reason to remove all mention of it and whitewash it out of the article. Instead of this pointless quest to whitewash the article, you would better serve Brown's memory by helping improve the article to make it one that better documents his accomplishments. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 21:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I think I understand your position. So if someone was to find some disrepectful songs about JFK and reference them on his Wikipedia page would that be "documenting history and culture in an accurate and neutral way" or would it just be offensive? RIP_DEB 07:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:RIP_DEB"

[edit] More comments

For a far more balanced and respectful assessment of Dennis Brown's career please refer to the sleevenotes to the Blood and Fire release 'The Promised Land' here; The Promised Land sleevenotes Here is a link to Dennis Brown's last interview; DEB's last interview

Respect to Dennis Brown.

--RIP DEB 05:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts on this article. A fine way to improve it would be to create a discography of Brown's recordings. -Will Beback 08:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

RIP DEB—I'm glad that you came to the conversation here. You remind me very clearly that there is lot more verifiable (and germane) information about Dennis Brown's career than there are rumors that haunt me. Let's wait until this article encompasses his entire career and impact before we sweat the details. In the meantime, let's get to work on the article.Reggaedelgado 09:22, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Let me echo what everyone else said. This article could use some significant expansion and you could provide some valuable help. Gamaliel 19:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd be more than happy to contribute. I'm still not happy about those two external links though. In fact I'm not even sure why it's necessary to have a complete section dedicated to his passing. I'd much prefer to see more emphasis on the massively positive contribution he made during his life.

btw The 'Top of the Pops' video link doesn't seem to work.

--RIP DEB 06:52, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

There's a paragraph devoted to his passing because it was a notable event. But I think we all agree that there should be more information on his contributions. Go for it. -Will Beback 06:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree that an artist of Dennis Brown's stature deserves a more complete description of his works. By the same token Dennis Brown's memory deserves better than disrespectful and unreliable quotes in external links.

--RIP DEB 13:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Dennis Brown was given a great tribute by Barrington Levy in Seattle January 2007 - Black roses blooming in my garden. - Many in the audience reacted immediately and with great enthusiasm in respect - thousands of miles away and years later the fathers shall always be remembered respected and praised.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:DennisBrown.jpg

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Talk:Dennis Brown

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[edit] Crack addict?

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