Talk:Demographics of Paris

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[edit] Immigration Question

What is the non-white population of Paris? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.208.177 (talk • contribs) 01:41, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

French censuses do not ask questions on ethnicity, so it is not possible to know what is the non-white population of Paris. Besides, the concept of "white" itself is quite shaky. Many people consider the Arabs of North Africa to be "white people". In any case, the only data we have are the birth place of people, which are reported during censuses. That's the data used in the article. Hardouin 00:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greater Metropolitan Paris

What exactly is included under this denomination? All of the Ile-de-France region? The end of the article concludes by saying that all these statistics refer to metropolitan Paris. Should we hear "Greater metropolitan Paris", that is, Paris & (most of) its suburbs? This of course has a decisive importance on statistics, which, again, should always be used with loads of precisions, or simply not used at all. Better good information than uncorrect approximations. Right now, these statistics do not mean anything as long as we don't know what exactly should be understood by this "Greater Metropolitan". Furthermore, I added a "unreferenced tag": how can you speak of demographics without sources? Please do find some quickly, or we'll have to think of some major revamping of the article. Lapaz 17:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Good question - you won't find this denomination in any reference. Some statistics are taken in the administrative Île-de-France région (comparable to a province if you will) and some from the aire urbaine statistical area comparable in some respects to a Metropolitan area, but all have been attributed to metropolitan area because the Île-de-France and Paris aire urbaine are "99% the same" - at least that is the reasoning used here. Not only is this unreferencable, but it flies in the face of Wiki naming conventions. You'll find this problem present in most Paris-oriented articles, so you'll only be helping by revamping away. The best site for statistics is that of France's official statistics agency, the INSEE. THEPROMENADER 19:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
(Grinning) To tell you the truth I had never really looked in any length at this article. The concept of a "Paris metropolitan area" population in 59 BC is highly amusing : ) THEPROMENADER 19:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Promenader, stop denigrating every Paris-related article that you didn't personally write yourself. Instead of insinuating things, let me restablish the truth here for Lapaz. All figures in the article are for the statistical metropolitan area of Paris and come from the INSEE website. Everybody can double-check the figures in the 1999 French census, it's very easy. Absolutely none of the figures in this article are Île-de-France figures. Promenader, you'd contribute more positively to Wikipedia if you tried to understand things instead of always denigrating articles. Hardouin 00:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

No insinuation at alll here, just straight fact. The 59 BC aire urbaine figures come from the INSEE website? Really. Since the Aire urbaine did not exist before 1990, the AU numbers indicated have to come from somewhere, and these would have to be Île-de-France statistics - statistics used, according to the above criteria, to "calculate" aire urbaine "estimates" - estimates that, by the way, are original research and strictly forbidden by Wiki. Pointing out the basic truth is indeed denigrating, but it is most certainly not denigration - this would insinuate that my claims are false. They're not.
The numbers for the 1990 and 1999 aire urbaine censuses are most certain to be correct. As for the other 'MA' numbers, trying to find sources for them will only make the truth all too clear. THEPROMENADER 08:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
OK. So I guess that this should be pointed out: the statistics are for the Paris' aire urbaine, which corresponds to the Ile-de-France region. Thus we are speaking about the Ile-de-France. Somewhere in the article it seemed to imply we were talking about Paris intra-muros, which is of course quite ridiculous for statistics on Paris. Now, if all figures in the article do come from the INSEE website, and that we can double-check them, well, this info shouldn't be on the talk page, but sourced over there. See Wikipedia:Footnotes] for tutorial. Lapaz 20:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
For sake of reference, numbers should be indicated under their proper name. It should also be made very clear that the Île-de-France and the aire urbaine have absolutely nothing to do with one another - the first is a decades-old administrative province based on even older country divisions, and the second is a constantly-changing statistical area - and that it is only coincidence that they are similar in size. Thus Île-de-France figures should be cited as such, and the same goes for the aire urbaine. The unité urbaine (urban area) and aire urbaine statistics of course should be used to their proper end (mapping real demography in disregarding political divisions), but the fact that these did not exist before 1990 can very easily be explained to the better comprehension of all.
The title "of Paris" would seem to imply that we are speaking of Paris intra-muros, or Paris itself, but in fact this article pays more attention to the Paris aire urbaine (metropolitan area) as an indiscriminate whole, an area again much bigger (and barren in its majority) than Paris. I find it odd that not only is the city within its limits glossed over (it contrasts enormously with even its nearest suburbs), no mention is made of Paris as an agglomeration (unité urbaine or urban area), information that one would think crucial to determining the actual physical spread of a city. There is some work to be done here for sure. THEPROMENADER 21:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved passage

"The most numerous groups of foreign-born residents of Paris are the following (roughly listed from most numerous to least numerous):

No reference. Please see WP:Verifiability. There surely was immigration to Paris before 1950, so I don't know why my change saying that Maghrebines came before the Second World War, with the added comment that most of the immigration had taken place during the Trente Glorieuses, has been reversed. I spoke about Aigues-Mortes as an example of immigration (and actually of a pogrom), and if there was immigration in Aigues-Mortes, I guess there was also in Paris. Lapaz 20:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This articles demographic section is annoying

The French goverment can pretend everybody is the same, but that doesnt help me much trying to figure out the ethnic makeup of the city.Please post it somebody, whether it's politically correct or not.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Raspberrysnapple (talk • contribs) 22:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The reason people aren't posting it has nothing to do with "political correctness". The French state does not collect data on ethnicity, and nor does it allow other organisations to do so. The data therefore simply don't exist. Cordless Larry 20:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

250,000 Ethnic Chinese in Paris - are you kidding me? Which source is this? - If Paris only has 2.1 million people, that would make Paris more than 10% Chinese. Are there really that mean Chinese people? Unlikely right?


Chinese association said 400,000 people with chinese origin but it is not only for the city but for the metro area (12 million inhabitants). So 400,000 it is less than 4% Minato ku 12:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect Dates

The info box lists 1328 as "the golden age of St. Louis". However, St. Louis, aka Louis IX, died in 1270. How can his golden age be 58 years after his death?