Talk:Demographic history of Macedonia

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[edit] Aegean/Greek Macedonia -> 51%

Dear Xelet (who art mirroring my name), you are requesting sources for the fact which is one of the few things that are not in dispute. There is a unanimous acceptance from all sources that Aegean/Greek Macedonia is 51% of the geographical region [1] [2]. Of course, I just know that you are reverting for the sake of wikistalking, and you have being doing this to a number of users, I strongly believe that you will earn you a hard ban from all articles, not just Rajput. I hope this has been clear enough, Mr Singh. --Telex 10:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 95% of Real Macedonia is in Greece

The Real Macedonia:

http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html

http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html

http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif


The Dardanians, Paeonians, and Illyrians are shown below, and those are the ancient inhabitants of the Fyrom area....NOT ancient Macedonians:

http://www.soros.org.mk/archive/G01/A01/as0106.htm

http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa4.jpg


69.234.160.42 04:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)Phil Hellene

No you wrong . Most , certainly, but not 95 % . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxseek (talk • contribs) 09:16, 26 July 2007

[edit] Error- sclavinas

For some reason, this article, and the other macedonian articles wrongly state that the slavic invaders that occupied the macedonian region were 'expelled'. (likely because it is the same author)

This is simply wrong. If the slavs were expelled by the Byszantines, then there would be no Macedonians, Bulgrains and slavophone Greeks today ! Yes, many were expelled, and they were pacifieed, but MOST remained in the area, albeit under Byzantine rule

You cannot just make huge errors like that. It falsifies history

I corrected it Hxseek 09:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

And your unsourced opinions have been reverted. Please take the time while you're blocked to read WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and WP:3RR. Thanks. --Ronz 18:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medieval history error

I would again like to highlight an error and inconsitenct in the above section.

Pertaining to the slavs " They (the slavs) invaded Macedonia and reached as far south as Thessaly and the Peloponnese, settling in isolated regions that were called by the Byzantines Sclavinias, until they got gradually eliminated by the Byzantine Emperors."

This must be a typing error, becuase it does not make sense. A great number of the sieging slavs were pacified and made to serve in the Byzantine army, but they were certainly not all expelled, as what the above paragraph makes out happened. Not only is this incorrect, but it is self contradictory- as the rest of the paragraph continues to discuss about how the slavs continued to raid with Bulgars, etc

The paragraph should be corrected. Eg the wiki article on history of Macedonia region is more correct:

"In the late 7th century Justinian II organized a massive expeditions against the Sklaviniai of the Greek peninsula, in which he reportedly captured over 110,000 Slavs and transferred them to Cappadocia. By the time of Constans II (who also organized campaigns against the Slavs), the significant number of the Slavs of Macedonia were captured and transferred to central Asia Minor where they were forced to recognize the authority of the Byzantine emperor and serve in its ranks. There are no Byzantine records of "Sklavines" after 836/837 as they were absorbed into the expanding Slavic First Bulgarian Empire. Slavic influence in the region strengthened along with the rise of this state, which incorporated parts of the region to its domain in 837 AD. "

Hxseek 22:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fringe viewpoint?

" During this period it has been claimed by Macedonian scolars that there exist large and oppressed ethnic Macedonian minorities in the region of Macedonia, located in neighboring states. Because of those claims, irredentist proposals are being made calling for the expansion of the borders of the Republic of Macedonia to encompass the territories allegedly populated with ethnic Macedonians. The population of the neighboring regions is presented as "subdued" to the propaganda of the governments of those neighbouring countries, and in need their incorporation into a United Macedonia."

This article should more explicitly state that the above idea represents the view of a FEW, FRINGE macedonian ultra-nationalists. As it is above, it is as if the whole RoM is actively preparing for invasion ! THis smells of Greek scare-mongering as if to justofy their denial of Macedonian self-sovereignity —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxseek (talk • contribs) 01:44, 4 August 2007

Please back your assertions and follow WP:CIVIL and WP:TALK when doing so. Thanks! --Ronz 03:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not have to back a claim which denies rediculous accusations Hxseek 03:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Not if you don't mind being ignored and possibly blocked you don't. --Ronz 04:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, block me. Allow such controversial, blanket, unsourced statements like the one above to be presented as matter of fact, yet you claim I am POV and I need to back my objection to it ! ? Do you even understand what you are saying?

This is unjust, this is not academic. This is not what one would expect from 'scholars'. Shameful Hxseek 15:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:CHILLOUT --Ronz 15:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes OK. Do not offend me with your own ignorance, do try to be impartial.

I think there is an overkill with the whole irrednetism claim about Macedonians, in all these articles. While certainly worth mentioning from a historical perspective, some keep refering to it as an excuse of why RoM should not be recognised.

This is just an outdated hangover from 1950s communist era, held onto by some because they lack any real arguements. Hxseek 03:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problematic statement about Slavs in Byzantine armies

I've removed the following sentence from the section about the arrival of the Slavs:

Many were eliminated by the Byzantine Emperors - as many as 200,000 were made to serve in the Byzantine army in Anatolia.

This seems dubious to me - I don't doubt that Slavs were employed in the Byzantine armies; in fact, according to our existing Sclaveni article they were systematically employed as military settlers too. But the sentence insinuates that this employment was a means to exterminate them? This seems odd, without a source. I've replaced the sentence with something more neutral, for the time being. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think up 200, 000 were removed, some of which then served in the army. Hxseek 11:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed re-format

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Slavic.2C_Bulgar_and_Avar_invasions section, hilst certainly very informative, reads a little laboured. I think it tries too cram too much info about too many things, eg Aromanians, AVaras, Tirks, Slavs. I propose that we break it down into sub sections, whilst keeping the essence of what is said intact Hxseek 02:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You are all insane

Sorry but,this article is all but the text for somme encyclopedia.How is possible those shits to be placed in Wikipedia.How you can argue about history and demography of some nation?Did somebody here ask himself about origins or demography of nowadays Greeks or Bulgars.For example Greeeks are totaly artificial nation.In 1821 in Morea(Pelloponesus) 50% of population can't understand modern greek language.About Bulgarian-this term in 19 centurie mean ortodox slavic christian in Balkans.See the census from 1911 in Ottoman empire:in villaet of Kosovo-there is no Serbs but 500.000 Bulgarians.This article is pure shauvinistic propaganda against Macedonian people and I think if wikipedia want to be serious encyclopedia,then articles like this are not needed.This is pure political shauvinistic propaganda against one whole people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.125.185.179 (talk) 14:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

This is about the Region, NOT the republic of Macedonia. Where are the stats? Kosovo was not the modern Kosovo . Скопие Skopie (Ottoman/Albanian Ushkub) was the provincial capital of Kosovo vilayet. Maqedan (talk) 07:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Slav" changed to "Ethnic"

Administrator, I have changed "Slav Macedonian" into "Ethnic Macedonian" since we do not identify as "Slav Macedonian." Mactruth (talk) 19:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)