Talk:Democratic Republic of Armenia

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[edit] Armenian Genocide

The Armenian Genocide, according to the strictest timeline, immediately preceded the First Republic of Armenia. Arguably, the events overlapped. While this is clearly not the place to have that debate between academic POVs, the relevance of the Armenian Genocide -- at the very least as background information for this article in the See Also section -- is certain.

To claim otherwise is like saying that the Boston Massacre is irrelevant to the American Revolution, or that . -- James

If it is relevant, please demonstrate the relevance the article, just like it is done with American Revolution. Are you saying that Armenian republic was created because of genocide? mikka (t) 18:00, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
No, the First Armenian Republic was not brought about solely because of the Armenian Genocide. But, the preceding Genocide did offer great impetus to the Western Powers to secure Armenian self-determination. The Genocide also severely weakened the population of Armenia, setting up the fledgling state, which immediately followed the Genocide, for collapse and partition.
The article is obviously incomplete, a work in progress. Certainly, the crucial relevance of the Armenian Genocide should go in the article as well, in good time. But, you will kindly note, the American Revolution article also links to the Boston Massacre. -- James
Will you kindly note that Boston Massacre is explained in the text as a cricial event sparkling revolution. I don't see how the massacre, however important it in the history, is of immediate cause of First Republic. (I admit I am pretty ignorant in the issue; but then, write a proof) And to write 1-2 justifying sentence is not a big deal to wait some "good time", especially if you see disagreement. So far you did not update a singe article in this respect, so it looks like pushing a political agenda. And anticipating your rebuttal, please keep in mind that when first coming to an article, it your job to justify your changes when questioned. I don't doubt that the Armenian Genocide has a great impact even today thru lots of connections, but surely you cannot link the birthday of Jesus Christ into every article however great (enormous!) impact this event had on Western civilization. Reasonably immediate relevance, please. mikka (t) 09:34, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
While in the context of what is written in this article, adding a link to the Armenian genocide is not the best solution, the Armenian genocide is a central point in the creation of the first republic. The Paris Peace conference, the King Crane reports, and dispatchs during or after the war of the necessities of creating an Armenian state were nearly all justified by how Armenians after what happened to them should have their state. Also, the first republic recieved about 175 thousands Ottoman Armenian survivers. This article should be clearly expended, but I doubt the individual that is adding back the Armenian link is able to do so, had he been, he would have added materials before adding the Armenian genocide link, which he hasn't done so. Fad (ix) 20:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Armenian Republic?

In German and Russian the first republic is known as “Armenian Republic” and the current as “Republic of Armenia”. Is this correct in English as well? Does anybody know the official name of the first one? Were the flag and the coat of arms exactly the same? Ulf-S. 13:54, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Could anyone please explain the source of the map currently included in the article? Thanks in advance. Grandmaster 19:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

http://www.armenica.org/history/maps/229etranscaucasus1918-20.jpg and http://www.armenica.org/history/maps/229repofarm1918-1920.jpg and http://www.armenica.org/history/maps/229wtranscaucasus1918-20.jpg
See here for references. -- Clevelander 20:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
No surprise that the maps don’t match. The source is Armenian and not neutral. I think both maps present wishful thinking. In fact, Armenia never had a control over predominantly Muslim Nakhichevan region, the Azeri population of which proclaimed Araks republic and refused to subordinate to Armenia. Eventually after long fights between Azeri and Armenian forces Turkish army established control over the region and left it to Bolsheviks. But the map does not reflect that. As for the map of Azerbaijan DR, it is an official map of 1920, presented to Paris peace conference by the Azeri government. It might be accurate or inaccurate, but it is a historical document. I think I will just explain what it is in the writing under the map and leave it at that. Grandmaster 05:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, in fact, all those unofficial maps are in complete contradiction with the "Wilson's map", referring to the President Wilson and Treaty of Sevres, which didn't envisage any Azerbaijani lands as part of new Armenian Republic except Naxcivan. That is most of Zangezur, Geycha, and certanly all of Karabakh were recognized by US as legitimate parts of Azerbaijan. Thus, there is not a single consistent map of the first Armenian Republic. In fact there is an interesting telegram of the PM of ADR where he instructs his minister that ADR ceeded Irevan (Yerevan) to Armenia, on May 29, 1918. --AdilBaguirov 08:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually if you looked at the sources, you would see that some of these maps are attributed to "Armenia: A Historical Atlas" by Robert H. Hewsen (a non-Armenian). Of course, I would have to see the book myself to verify if the map I used was directly referenced here (it's at my local library in the reference department and I'd be willing to make xeroxes). Then we can rekindle our discussion. -- Clevelander 20:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Robert Hewsen is actually Armenian despite an Anglo-Saxon name - and his atlas was published with the financial help and participation from various Armenian organizations, whom he all lists and thanks in his Atlas. But anyway, those maps are not official - whereas the map we have for ADR is the official map from archives, that was actually presented at the Paris Peace Conference. --AdilBaguirov 22:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure that Hewsen is an Armenian? Do you have a source for that? -- Clevelander 22:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
It is always mentioned by prof. F.Mamedova, who is a prominent scholar on Caucasian Albania and knows him well, cites his books, etc. I have online references to Russian-language articles, such as this one[1]. --AdilBaguirov 00:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
...but, this comes from an Azerbaijan source. Can it be verified by any western sources? If you can show me proof from a western source of Hewsen's background, then I'll reconsider the map.-- Clevelander 00:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I know, I've identified is as an Azerbaijani source. I don't think I have Western or other sources on Hewsen's ethnicity. But this was never my main contention -- it is that Armenian map is still unofficial, whilst ADR's if both official and published in a Western publication. Yet some users constantly vandalize the ADR page, by both attempting to remove the map or adding first one, now two boxes about dispute! Hewsen's maps are not official and not authoritative, he clearly thanks dozens of Armenian organizations for all their support of the atlas' publication. --AdilBaguirov 00:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Just because he thanks Armenian sources doesn't necessarily mean that he's an uncredible source. I see him as a credible source not only because I see him as a non-Armenian (for lack of credible proof pointing to the contrary), but he is also very intelligent and has given several lectures and written several books. He is a hardcore researcher and historian, so if anything, I think he'd know what he's talking about. -- Clevelander 01:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, the map on the Azerbaijan page also contradicts that of the one on the Democratic Republic of Georgia. The map in that article shows Armenia's Lori (shown on the Armenian map as a disputed territory between Georgia and Armenia) and the Balakan-Zaqatala-Qakh region as part of the DRG. On the ADR map, Lori is shown as a disputed territory with Georgia and Azerbaijan is shown to have completely control over Balakan-Zaqatala-Qakh. I'll tag the Georgia article too, as this is not consistent with the borders of the ADR as shown on its article. -- Clevelander 21:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
But Armenian map also does not match that of Georgia. Everybody has their own vision of the situation, of course in their own favor. Grandmaster 04:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Georgia was the only country of Caucasus that achieved de jure recognition in addition to de facto from the League of Nations, as Georgia existed the longest, until 1921. Hence, if the Georgia map is official, i.e., based on the one used at the Paris Peace Conference and later in its de jure recognition application (filed probably in November 1920), then it was recognized legitimate and correct, and any maps produced by Hewsen -- who is an expert on Armenia, Georgia and Caucasian Albania of the same period early medival period -- do not hold much water. Of course he is a rather prominent and knowledgeable source, but once again, his maps are one step below the maps presented at the League of Nations. Meanwhile, both Georgia and ADR had a military and partnership agreement signed in 1919, yet both had to work out differences on their claims to certain territories. But those differences are normal -- to this day all countries have to clearly demarkate their borders (e.g., Georgia-Russia, Azerbaijan-Russia) and the overlapping territories were not as extensive and large as in case with Armenia's claims on both republics. also, all territories in ADR map had predominant or substantial Azerbaijani population. At that time ethno-national composition of territories was enough for self-determination. --AdilBaguirov 08:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, there is an important fact noted on the Georgia map: it says that Zakatala and some other lands were under "stable Georgian control by Oct 1920". Well, by April 1920, Azerbaijan was invaded by Bolsheviks, and ADR officially ceased to exist on April 27-28, 1920. It created a vaccuum, where territory, in strict legal sense, didn't belong to anyone. Whoever was the srongest, won. Thus, it's possible that in the ensuing chaos Georgia had control of those territories -- indeed, many Azerbaijanis, who were either majority or otherwise substantial in those territories, preferred capitalist and Europe-oriented Georgia, than bolshevik Russia, and thus preferred to be part of Georgia. --AdilBaguirov 08:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Georgian-Armenian War

Who wrote this? Where are the sources for these horrific claims that Georgians were supported by Ottomans and they wanted Armenian to be slaughtered? I studied that period and nowhere did I see such claims (neither from Armenians or any other historical sources). This is terrible POV. Plus written in bad English. Somebody intentionally makes provocations. This section is provocative POV and it should be modified in respects with NPOV and truthfulness of Wiki. What a shame :( Ldingley 21:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I think I moved some text from the Army of Islam couple of months ago. Wikified the paragraph and removed couple of statements that I pesonally find hard to belive. I was reading about Army of Islam, but there is not much factual info about that period. The life span of that army was less then 8 months, and the idea that it reached as deep as Georgia is questionable. That was my main interest in that paragraf. The basic premise of that statement is based on it, which also makes it POV if the facts are not there. If there is no Army of Islam, there is no question regarding that issue. I can not give you sentence by sentence verification. From my bookmarks there is a link you can use. [2] Hope you can add some factual data about that conflict. I would like to read about that. That period was very interesting.--OttomanReference 23:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The whole section about Ottoman-Georgian co-operation against Armenians is wrong and somebody's provocative POV. Also nobody in Georgia desired for Armenians to be slaughtered by Turks. Its ridiculous claim and should be modified and re-edited. In fact, Georgians sheltered fleeing Armenians from Turkish controlled territories. Ldingley 23:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I hear you! Hope the reference was usefull. --OttomanReference 00:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
A section-NPOV would not be out of place here. It was a war between two nations and there was no "brave militia war." Furthermore, the section is based exclusively on what "Armenian historians claim." Should not we mention a Georgian point-of-view at least in a few words? While Georgia allegedly received aid from Turks (which is not true as Georgia's relations with Turkey was far from peaceful), Armenia was supported by Denikin and symphatized by the UK mission. Text should be objective. Tell me what you think about it. Thanks, --Kober 05:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I just modified the text. I hope now it is more neutral.--Kober 05:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
You are correct Kober. UK actually halted the Georgian (Kutaisi battalion) advance on Northern Armenia and warned Zordania to withdraw. Actually, Georgians defeated Armenian troops and moved south of Lori. English saw it as a threat for Armenia and warned Georgians with possible reprisals from His Majesties Government. There was no collaboration or aid from the Turkish side to the Georgians. On contrary, Georgians had an open conflict with Turks. Not to mention the fact that Georgia was attacked by Denikis Ultra-nationalist “Whites”, Azeris in Borchalo, Armenians in south, Turks (and their Muslim allies in Ajaria) and infamous Bolsheviks (of all nationalities). Denikin was an open hardcore anti-Georgian and he was directly involved in Georgian-Armenian conflict. OttomanReference, you should use reliable sources and differentiate between primary and secondary historical sources. Nice job Kober! Ldingley 14:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map issue solved

Okay, our Georgian counterparts on Wikipedia have turned me on to a website called Atlas of Conflicts (the source for the map as seen on the DRG article). The page presents a fairly accurate history of the territorial disputes in the Caucasus during World War I. I replaced the Armenian map I made (based on Hewsen's work) with the one used on their website. This map accurately depicts all of Armenia's territorial disputes during this period. -- Clevelander 19:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC)