Talk:Democratic Progressive Party

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Contents

[edit] Fascism

In all the election campaign, DPP uses the tactic that "if you love Taiwan, vote for DPP", "if you are true Taiwanese, vote for DPP", "if you vote for the pan blue parties, you are not Taiwanese", and furthermore, "if you vote for the pan blue parties, you are Chinese communist", "if you are fed in Taiwanese food, you should vote for true Taiwanese", "Pan blue parties are Chinese parties, not Taiwanese" (2000 & 2004 presidential election, 1998, 2001 and 2004 legistilative yuan members election)

DPP government insists to call the Fujian dialect as "Taiwanese", people who immigrated to Taiwan from China more than 100 years ago as true "Taiwanese", while ignoring the voices of Taiwanese aboriginal people.

From the definition fo Fascism in Wikipedia,

   * exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual.
   * stresses loyalty to a single leader.
   * uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition.
   * engages in severe economic and social regimentation.
   * implements totalitarianism.

point 1: Over the years, even being more corrupted than the GMT government, its core voters follow the slogan of DPP "if you are true Taiwanese, vote for DPP". (2000 & 2004 presidential election, 1998, 2001 and 2004 legistilative yuan members election)

point 2: Chen Shui-bian. The most recent example, holding the 2004 referendum because Chen wants it, and then overturning the 2004 referendum results also because Chen doesn't like them, meanwhile millions of dollars are wasted. (2004 presidential election)

point 3: Use the "Government Information Office" to control medias with opposite openion. Control CTS, TTV and FTV and censor the news regarding opposite parties. Legalise underground radios who supported Chen in the 2004 elections.

point 4: Control the education system. In the official high school social study textbook, DPP government changed the text declares the constitution of ROC first written by GMT "may against the law", law of what is unclear.

point 5: From definition, all totalitarian régimes pose as the culmination of 'true' democracy as opposed to the liberal democracies that exercise the rule of law and respect property rights. In all elections, DPP claims that they are the true democracy, and to oppose DPP is to oppose democracy.

I would welcome Wilfried Derksen to challange the above points. bobbybuilder 18:12pm, 22 June 2005 (UTC)

I am not convinced by the 5 points that it makes the DPP fascist. I would like to see some more Taiwanese reactions on that. At the other hand, it is clearly not a neutral point of view to call this party fascist. A sentence that the party stresses Taiwanese identity is not NPOV.
I will revert the text since it is not NPOVElectionworld 20:25, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

NPOV in wikipedia means to be "neutral", not to be only "positive". If you ignore everything negative, then it is definitely not neutral. "A sentence that the party stresses Taiwanese identity is not NPOV."? Please explain. The definition is there, the facts are there, if you are not convinced, bring up other facts. Otherwise it is just your POV. bobbybuilder 22:05, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is no particular reason to associate racism and fascism with the DPP. I say this as a very strong supporter of the KMT.

If you want to write a deeper article into why some Taiwanese think the DPP is racist and fascist, go ahead, but simply linking DPP to articles on racism and fascism without going into detail about why, won't work.

Roadrunner 22:15, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Taiwanese vote for A-bian, Chinese vote for Lien." DPP campaign 2000, 2004. "The flooding in Kaohsiung was caused by having too many Chinese coming here." DPP Kaohsiung local government 2003.

To your second point, the details about why are there, I cannot help if you want to read selectively.

Interesting point, many DPP workers also like to go to discussion forums and claim they are loyal KMT supporters, and pretend to be very naive about the current affair. bobbybuilder 22:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You can look at my long record of posting on wikipedia, and decide what I really believe.

Also, I included links to racism and fascism with context. One thing that you really have to understand is that most people in the world don't know Taiwan politics, and you have to explain the situation. Linking the DPP to racism and fascism simply makes no sense to most people.

Roadrunner 22:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Added some more stuff. Actually the main reason I had been holding off on expanding the article like I did with the the article on the Kuomintang is that I very much dislike the DPP, and would have preferred if someone who was very much pro-DPP started with a draft.

bobbybullder - if you want to convince people, you have to look and sound reasonable. Saying the ***DPP is a bunch of fascists*** just hurts your cause.

Roadrunner 22:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please give information what oppositionals label the DPP as fascist and/or racist. I would like you to study what fascism is. Start studying Italy and the Mussolini era. You cannot compare the present government in any way which the fascist dictatorships. Electionworld 05:42, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pan-blue labels the DPP as fascist. If you do not understand the politics in Taiwan and cannot read Chinese newspaper, I suggest you pull out of the discussion. Are you trying to say Fascist disappeared after the Mussolini era? The definition of Fascism is in Wikipedia, I strongly suggest you study the history of Fascism first, it is not our job to educate you. Please give us examples why we cannot COMPARE the present government in Taiwan IN ANY WAYS with the Fascist dictatorships? bobbybuilder 19:21, 22 Jun 2005 (TST)

[edit] DPP facist?

I respect that you strongly disagree with the DPP government, but you cannot be serious to state that the DPP government resembled that of Mussolini's any other fascist government. Therefore it is necesary that it

  • exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual.
  • stresses loyalty to a single leader.
  • uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition.
  • engages in severe economic and social regimentation.
  • engages in corporatism.
  • implements totalitarianism.

I did not only use wikipedia to study what fascism is. I do not like the way you censor me: to suggest that I pull out of the discussion. It is not up to me to prove that the present givewrnment in Taiwan does not resemble a fascist dictatorship. It is your thesis that it does and what I read in your statements, doesn't convince at all. The basic fact that it is not a fascist regime is that Taiwan is nowadays a multiparty democracy, in which the opposition could win elections. As far as I have seen the last National Assembly elections were not considered not to be free and fair. Free and fair elections are incompatible with fascism. BTW1: Nation-building is not the same as fascism. Every sovereign state had to go in a process of nation building. Would you consider Bismarck a fascist?

BTW: Since I am not Taiwanese I do not have a special loyalty to DPP, but ever when I met representatives of that party, as I did a couple of times, I got a complete different impression on that party. BTW 2. I suggest you read the book To be Free, by Chee Soon Juan which describes in its first chapter the struggle of the DPP against the opression in Taiwan during the one-party government. A fact is that opponents label the DPP government as fascist-like. I added an example of that in the paragraph on criticism. I also cited an scientific analyses of this labeling and a reaction by a DPP legislator. Electionworld 20:42, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand right. Can you put more clear for me. Thank you. Bobbybuilder 23:16, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Is it all right for us to report what the opposition accused DPP for? or all the sudden reporting is not NPOV anymore?

August 2003, Hualien local government election, DPP-led government only investigated pan-blue local representatives for bribery, and was called "Fascists".

20 May 2004, Lien Chan from KMT pointed out that DPP said "Vote No. 1 (Chen) is being Taiwanese; Vote No. 2 (Lien) is being Chinese", and said "this kind of racist leader can only provide a Fascist Taiwan". - source: from the pan-green newspaper, http://www.libertytimes.com.tw/2004/new/may/21/today-p1.htm

Did I censor you? No, but I firmly believe that it is unwise to comment on things you don't know. It is not our fault that you cannot read Chinese newspapers to understand the politics in Taiwan.

You do not have to repeat the definitions of Fascism, I've already provided facts to back up my argument. I cannot control whether YOU accept those facts or not. However, not because you say "they are not convincing" then they must be dismissed. Who is censoring who now?

Are you saying because there are more than one party, DPP cannot be "Fascist"? All the sudden the neo-fascist parties in Italy now disappeared, well done.

"Since I am not Taiwanese I do not have a special loyalty to DPP", is that logical? When does "not being Taiwanese" mean "not giving special favour to DPP"? From your profile that you are a liberal person, are you saying because you are not American you do not have special loyalty to the Democratic Party? BTW, talking about being liberal, DPP supported Bush in 2004.

DPP did have oppression at the beginning, but they gained support from Deng-Hui Lee even when Lee was the president and the leader of GMT, that was the reason why many GMT members left and formed the New Party. After DPP gains power, it uses a similar tactic to oppress the opposition, it is doing exactly what it opposed before, that is also why the original leader Hsu_Hsin-liang, the spokeswoman Sisy Chen, parliament member Lee-Wen Cheng and many other people left DPP. Another past leader, Shih Ming-teh, The very person Chee was talking about in the book, left the party in 1998 for various reasons, one of those is he cannot stand for the current DPP's racial hatry. He also ran against DPP and GMT in 2004 Legistation yuan members election. Most of those people who really got oppressed left in the recent 8 or 7 years. Did you get all of these information from that book published in 1998?

Also, because they were oppressed before, it is all right for them to oppress other people now? Isn't that the very same reason Hitler killed so many Jews, because he felt oppressed? bobbybuilder, 06:09, 24 June 2005 (TST)


- Following information about DPP is extracted from Encyplopaedia Britannica 2003.

" Taiwanese political party formed in September 1986 by a group of independents who initially sought self-determination for the Taiwanese people, democratic freedoms, the establishment of economic ties with China, and a multiparty system. The DPP's advocacy of political liberalization led to the arrest and imprisonment of many of the party's leading figures. Despite a ban on new political parties (part of the martial law regulations that were in effect from 1949 to 1987), the DPP was informally organized in 1983. In 1986 it won 12 legislative seats, and in the election of December 1989—the first in which opposition groups could contest seats as organized political parties—the DPP won 21 of 101 seats in the Yüan, Taiwan's legislature. Amid debates over Taiwanese independence—the DPP committed itself to the establishment of a “Taiwanese republic with independent sovereignty”—the party's popularity declined in the early 1990s. By the late 1990s, however, it captured more than 30 percent of the legislature's seats, and its leader, Ch'en Shui-pian, was elected president in 2000. In December 2001 the DPP won 87 seats in the now 225-seat Yüan, replacing the Nationalist Party, which had ruled Taiwan continually from its founding, as the largest party in the legislature. "

I think the general concensus is that the DPP is not fascist. I spent the time to read over everything he wrote and my conclusion is that the DPP is not fascist just because the Kuomintang labels them as such. It is just like how we don't label the Falun Gong an "Evil Cult" just because the Chinese Communist Party refers to them as such in their official papers and memo's. This is Wikipedia, we have to be as bipartisan as possible, its supposed to be encyclopedic, not a venue for pushing one's propaganda. It is pretty obvious when someone is pushing something on you with fallacious arguments. Some people here think that doing so will influence others, but largely underestimate the intelligence of the masses using Wikipedia. --24.193.80.232 (talk) 14:50, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Factions

Can someone elaborate on the different factions? The factions are frequently mentionned without explanation in English news sources based in Taiwan. wayne 23:00, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

"... traditionally been associated with the pan-green coalition...": since that label is a neologism and its other main constituent the Taiwan Solidarity Union is also fairly young, arguably the DPP has not been "traditionally" associated with it. The DPP has, however, been traditionally associated with the Tangwai movement, social movements (anti-nuke), political reform movements, Taiwan independence, etc. A-giau 23:04, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] disambiguation

Please do not move this page without discussing. This is by far the most famous and important DPP. The others are defunct or newly established. --Jiang 10:51, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi again. It is common use at the naming of parties Or other organizations, with the same name, to use a disambig page and add the country name to each of these parties. Indeed, the Taiwanese DPP is a famous and important party, but why should it be preferred to the presidential party of Malawi. So I just wanted to be consequent. Gangulf 10:54, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is more famous and of consequence than the party in Malawi because of the history involved (the one in Malawi was only formed this month) and its importance in Taiwan itself, which is a global hotspot when compared to Malawi. Just look at how many pages link here versus there... So i dont see a reason not to favor this one--Jiang 10:57, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This is a classic case of "Primary topic" disambiguation: "if one meaning is clearly predominant, it remains...the general title. The top of the article provides a link to the other meanings." And we indeed should discuss before moving major topics, even only to see no comments (meaning no opposition). --Menchi 11:22, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)


DPP advocates Taiwan independence ?

DPP adopted a resolution titled 'Resolution on Taiwan's future' in 1999. It said that Taiwan is already an independent state, its present official name is Republic of China. According to this resolution, DPP already renounced Taiwan independence in 1999. Althought its charter still containes a provision for creation of a Republic of Taiwan.

Everyone knows this the truth of DPP. Like KMT is pro-together. Bobbybuilder 23:45, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism and Debating

After seeing what happened here and on similar political articles, I really don't think it's appropriate to include a seperate section on criticisms for any current political party, as the whole thing degenerates into a political debate with everyone throwing in points and counterpoints (See Kuomintang, Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a soapbox). It also raises serious questions on NPOV if we only include such a section for a single political party.

I have merged relevent info from the Criticisms section into the main body of the article and removed the rest. I feel that the most we should do is provide the party platform and where it differs from the platforms of other parties. Anyone who is really interested can feel free to dig deeper on the subject and form their own opinion without us telling them why some policy is right or wrong. --Loren 05:40, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I made a few changes based on the following:
1. Pan-blue only apologised for the Nazi label, but it still believes that some actions adopted by DPP are racist.
2. Taiwanese identity can consist of Chinese identity like Singaporian identity, it's the separating part Pan-blue is opposing, so I changed some words.
The final point is related to the following comment: At the other end of the political spectrum, the acceptance by the DPP of the symbols of the Republic of China is opposed by the Taiwan Solidarity Union. Here is a question for everyone: who knows where DPP is at in the political spectrum? I thought KMT was right, and DPP was left, but that's before 2000. Bobbybuilder 22:18, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore you is wrong. The racist DPP is because they don't like mainland people of China and aborigness. Bobbybuilder 23:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

That is a very narrow interpretation of what a few extremists have said. The mainstream DPP position is that the Chinese identity is one of many that make up the Taiwanese identity. Just as the KMT platform isn't defined by actions or words of the "愛國同心會" or the few people who attempted to, and still try to surpress anything Taiwanese or remotely local or even advocate union under 1C2S. Does the presence of these people on the blue side mean that I can label the KMT as a whole racist or communist collaborators? I think not. --Loren 23:48, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Assassination attempt

The section that describes the assassination attempt on President Chen appears biased. "effectively preventing the mostly pan-blue police and military bodies from voting"; is it true that the majority of the police and military were prevented from casting votes by the assassination? "which many of the population are questioning if the assassination was genuine" How many? Any citation? "despite the obvious corruption of the judiciary" What obvious corruption? Isn't the judiciary a long term job, meaning most judges got their start and high-ranking judges got their promotions under the KMT? "it was conducted by about 460 teams situated in 21 courthouses across the Taiwan area, employing Lee Tsang Yu, a famous American Taiwanese investigator questioned of having accepted bribes from DPP". How is it relevant that 1 person out of 460 teams in 21 different courthouses was questioned (not convicted, merely "questioned") about bribes? If he was the leader of the recount, then it might be relevant, but the article doesn't say he was the leader, merely that this questioned individual was 1 person out of 460 teams. Readin 18:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

You'll find there's so much bias in these sorts of articles because they're rarely reviewed by people "in the know". I suggest you make so pro-active edits yourself to remove the bias. John Smith's 19:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Should we include information on how world famous investigator Dr Lee came to various conclusions that the assassin was likely not a professional, as well as whom the Taiwan police ultimately concluded was the assassin? I know there is controversy because there are KMT die-hards that will say that the police are DPP puppets, yet at the same time say that most of the police and military lean KMT (check the discussion page on the KuoMinTang article). If its controversial at least bring out some of the picture. Just saying the shooting was controversial doesn't really put much to it. --24.193.80.232 (talk) 14:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)