Talk:Democratic Party (Italy)
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[edit] Proposal of expansion
As the current article's leadership section is due to grow bigger and bigger with time (we already have seven announced candidates as of today [1]), I propose to create a separate article for the Democratic Party (Italy) leadership convention, 2007, following examples such as this. Let me know your opinion. --Angelo 21:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Definitely agree. --Checco 12:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- Oh yes, absolutely. —Nightstallion 15:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] PES membership?
Any solid word on whether this party will be part of PES (Party of European Socialists)? A PES rep at the UK Labour party conference last week implied that it would, but unfortunately I didn't get opportunity to ask further. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrShyguy (talk • contribs) 23:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
- No. The Democratic Party has not adhered any of the European parties yet, and I personally doubt the party in a whole would enter the PES (at least in the next future) mainly due to its heterogeneous nature. --Angelo 00:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- How about the EDP, though? That might work. —Nightstallion 22:09, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know, in any case they are still yet to decide, and there are several different opinions on the matter. My personal feeling is that they would not decide in the next future, at least not before the next European election. --Angelo 22:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- I completely agree with Angelo and I guess that it is more likely that PD will join one day PES than EDP. --Checco 11:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
- It claims [here] that the Pd with join the PES. However, the article also claims that the Brazilian Workers Party and the US Democratic Party(!) are connected to PES somehow, which is more than a little factually inaccurate.--Free Socialist 01:14, 11 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Free Socialist (talk • contribs)
- I completely agree with Angelo and I guess that it is more likely that PD will join one day PES than EDP. --Checco 11:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know, in any case they are still yet to decide, and there are several different opinions on the matter. My personal feeling is that they would not decide in the next future, at least not before the next European election. --Angelo 22:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- How about the EDP, though? That might work. —Nightstallion 22:09, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
The PES is known to be a more heavyweight and well-organised group than ALDE according to my contacts in politics, so the PD would be able to wield more political clout as part of that group, I assume. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrShyguy (talk • contribs) 18:12, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with you that the best European affiliation for PD will be PES, but this is politics not political science. This is an encyclopedia not a blog, and, frankly, I find difficult to understand how your remarks are connected with our discussion. --Checco 01:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Union, the Olive Tree etc.
Does The Union (political coalition) still exist? Havent all the parties become part of the new party? And what about The Olive Tree (political coalition)? As far as I understand the Union is a newer coalition which is the olive tree + some extra parties. But I saw an overview on the election of 2006 here on wikipedia where the Olive Tree was still listed. This is all quite confusing (Italian politics is quite confusing, with incredibly many parties...). By the way, it seems like the article The Olive Tree (political coalition) needs being updated. It still talks about PLANS for a new party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oddeivind (talk • contribs) 14:55, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
- The Olive Tree has become the Democratic Party. The Union still exists (at least for now).
--Free Socialist 18:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
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- The article on The Olive Tree needs a complete rewrite and update. --Checco 00:20, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
In the article Democracy is Freedom – Daisy, we can read:
"In the 9-10 April 2006 general elections, the party was member of the winning The Union (L'Unione) and won 39 out of 315 senators. The Olive Tree list won 220 out of 630 deputies."
Does this mean that the Union only had lists for the Italian Senate, while the Olive Tree only had lists for the Italian Chamber of Deputies? Did this two coalitions exist at the same time? Is the Union a larger coalition than the Olive Tree? --Oddeivind 09:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- The Union parties all ran alone in the Senate, including Democrats of the Left and Daisy which instead ran together in the Chamber of Deputies (as Olive Tree). The Union is basically an electoral alliance which involves all centre-left parties of Italy (including Olive Tree ones). --Angelo 09:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
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- What Angelo wrote above is not correct. The Union parties run in coalition also in the Senate, they were the parties forming The Olive Tree which run separately, while for the Chamber they formed a joint list. The sentence cited above by Oddeivind is uncorrect too: DL and DS actually elected around 100 senators. Dear Oddeivind, let me know what exactly you want to know so that I can help you. What I can say now is what follows.
- The Olive Tree was a coalition of parties formed in 1996 by PDS (later DS), PPI and other small centrist parties (later formed DL together), the Greens and the Italian Socialists (later SDI). For the 2001 election the coalition was joined by PdCI and UDEUR. In 2004 DS, DL and SDI decided to form a joint list for that year European election. The Greens, PdCI and UDEUR refused to enter. From that point The Olive Tree was meant as the close alliance between DS, DL and SDI. In 2005 the parties of The Olive Tree formed a bigger alliance with the Greens, PdCI, UDEUR, PRC and IdV and headed toward a united party, the Democratic Party. This party was fouded in 2007 by the merge of DS and DL. SDI had left The Olive Tree in 2005. Clear? --Checco 12:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- What I am trying to understand is the exact relationship between the Union and the Olive Tree. Did theese two alliances exist at the same time? I have the impression that the Olive Tree was an electoral alliance that itself was part of an electoral alliance. Doesnt that just mean that more parties became members of the first alliance, and that the alliance had just changed names? Was there a closer relationship between the parties in the Olive Tree than those in the Union, so that the Olive Tree continued to exist even after the creation of the Union? --Oddeivind 13:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- Just read carefully what I wrote above... --Checco 13:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- Once more: The Union is a large and loose political alliance, and one of its members was the Olive Tree coalition, a closer alliance (which does not exist any more, as its members merged to become the Democratic Party). —Nightstallion 18:59, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- Just read carefully what I wrote above... --Checco 13:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- What I am trying to understand is the exact relationship between the Union and the Olive Tree. Did theese two alliances exist at the same time? I have the impression that the Olive Tree was an electoral alliance that itself was part of an electoral alliance. Doesnt that just mean that more parties became members of the first alliance, and that the alliance had just changed names? Was there a closer relationship between the parties in the Olive Tree than those in the Union, so that the Olive Tree continued to exist even after the creation of the Union? --Oddeivind 13:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- The Olive Tree was a coalition of parties formed in 1996 by PDS (later DS), PPI and other small centrist parties (later formed DL together), the Greens and the Italian Socialists (later SDI). For the 2001 election the coalition was joined by PdCI and UDEUR. In 2004 DS, DL and SDI decided to form a joint list for that year European election. The Greens, PdCI and UDEUR refused to enter. From that point The Olive Tree was meant as the close alliance between DS, DL and SDI. In 2005 the parties of The Olive Tree formed a bigger alliance with the Greens, PdCI, UDEUR, PRC and IdV and headed toward a united party, the Democratic Party. This party was fouded in 2007 by the merge of DS and DL. SDI had left The Olive Tree in 2005. Clear? --Checco 12:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- What Angelo wrote above is not correct. The Union parties run in coalition also in the Senate, they were the parties forming The Olive Tree which run separately, while for the Chamber they formed a joint list. The sentence cited above by Oddeivind is uncorrect too: DL and DS actually elected around 100 senators. Dear Oddeivind, let me know what exactly you want to know so that I can help you. What I can say now is what follows.
A timeline could be useful:
- 1994-1996: Pact for Italy (PPI and Patto Segni) and the Alliance of Progressives (PDS, PRC, Greens, SI, others) separate alliances
- 1996-1998: The Olive Tree (PDS, PPI, Greens, RI, SI, UD/Dem, others) + PRC (external support)
- 1998-2004: The Olive Tree (DS, DL, PdCI, Greens, SDI, UDEUR)
- 2004-2005: The Union {The Olive Tree (DS, DL, SDI) + PRC + PdCI + Greens + IdV + UDEUR}
- 2004-2005: The Union {The Olive Tree (DS, DL) + PRC + PdCI + Greens + IdV + SDI + UDEUR}
- 2006-2007: The Union {The Olive Tree (DS, DL) + PRC + RnP (SDI, Rad) + PdCI + IdV + UDEUR
- since 2007: The Union (PD, PRC, SD, IdV, Greens, PdCI, SDI, Rad, UDEUR)
I hope that this is helpful to you. --Checco 19:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks, I tried to fill in links to make it easier to see which parties are behind the abbrevations. I think I found out most, but these two Im not sure about: SI, UD/Dem. --Oddeivind 16:04, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
- SI is for Italian Socialists (precursor of the Italian Democratic Socialists and of the new Socialist Party), UD for Democratic Union and Dem for The Democrats. --Checco 17:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, I have put them in. --Oddeivind 19:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
- SI is for Italian Socialists (precursor of the Italian Democratic Socialists and of the new Socialist Party), UD for Democratic Union and Dem for The Democrats. --Checco 17:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Ideology
It is mentioned in recent revisions that PD is a "social-democratic party" that is influenced in party by "fiscal conservatism". Has PD ever described itself openly as social-democratic? Could it be more accurately described as a "Third Way" party in the style of, most notably, the New Labour faction of the British Labour Party? --Free Socialist (talk) 18:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- The party is definitely social-democratic, as the majority of its members call themeselves social-democratic and are member of PES, but it is true that leaders prefer to use the word "democratic" which actually doesn't mean anything at all. Their program is social-democratic, anyway. I wrote that the party is characterized by fiscal conservatism: in fact Democrats are very keen on balancing budgets and staying within Maasticht crtiteria. It can sound strange, but that's what they are: fiscal conservative. --Checco (talk) 18:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- Veltroni mentioned in the Spanish media "Somos reformistas, no de izquierdas" - "we are reformists, not the Left". When considering what reformist means in Italian politics, is Veltroni is emphasing the nature of PD as a moderate "centre"-left party rather than a party of the radical left? --Free Socialist (talk) 01:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, this is what the PD is: a centre-left party. All the article explains that. But keep attention: the PD, although it prefers not to characterize itself explicitly as a social-democratic party, is clearly to the left of many European social-democratic parties and has within itself a strong internal left: most of its members come from the Italian Communist Party in fact... --Checco (talk) 08:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- So it's accurate to say that the former PCI element of PD still greatly outnumbers the other political diasporas within the new party?--Free Socialist 22:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed a 55-60% of the MPs of the party come from PCI.--Checco (talk) 07:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- Additional question: does PD have any formal ties to organised labour/trade unions? --Free Socialist 23:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
- There are no formal ties, but most of CIGL, CISL and UIL members are affiliated to PD. --Checco (talk) 07:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- Additional question: does PD have any formal ties to organised labour/trade unions? --Free Socialist 23:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed a 55-60% of the MPs of the party come from PCI.--Checco (talk) 07:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- So it's accurate to say that the former PCI element of PD still greatly outnumbers the other political diasporas within the new party?--Free Socialist 22:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, this is what the PD is: a centre-left party. All the article explains that. But keep attention: the PD, although it prefers not to characterize itself explicitly as a social-democratic party, is clearly to the left of many European social-democratic parties and has within itself a strong internal left: most of its members come from the Italian Communist Party in fact... --Checco (talk) 08:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- Veltroni mentioned in the Spanish media "Somos reformistas, no de izquierdas" - "we are reformists, not the Left". When considering what reformist means in Italian politics, is Veltroni is emphasing the nature of PD as a moderate "centre"-left party rather than a party of the radical left? --Free Socialist (talk) 01:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Ideology 2
In Italy there's difference betwen: leftist christian democracy (Popolari) and Christian left (Cristiano Sociali). In italian PD there are many christian democrats. The christian left (Cristiano sociali) is more small than Christian democrats (Popolari).
PD is "a social democratic party, strongly influenced by ideas of leftist christian democracy". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.57.78.25 (talk) 11:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- Not true. Both Populars and Social Christians are Christian left (in Italian: cristianesimo sociale). --Checco (talk) 11:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
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