Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 November 29

Tim_Phillips (businessman) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|AfD)

This article should be reconsidered as sufficiently notable for the US-CEO Stub Category. Compared to the current uncomprehensive collection of CEOs in this category this page lists an acceptable number of contributions to business, community, and politics (not only with a run for congress, but also current activity and political commentary). The reliable sources cited in the page confirm this. This would be a positive addition to a lacking category. Sturatt (talk) 22:49, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse closure (keep deleted). I find no process problems in this discussion. The article failed because no sources were provided demonstrating the subject's notability. The links on the deleted page were evaluated and considered by the community to be insufficient evidence. No new sources have been provided here. Until new sources are found, there are no grounds to overturn the prior decision. Rossami (talk) 23:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. A very worthy businessman. Founding his own firm, being a failed congressional candidate and sitting on the boards of various organisation make a core case for inclusion. However, for notability secondary sources are needed on achievements and none were produced during the AfD and in this DRV. This was a tight decision but, on balance, correct. BlueValour (talk) 23:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse Closure First off, nothing was procedurally wrong with the AFD closing. The original page was quite spammy as well. ~Sasha Callahan _(Talk) 04:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

*Restore Strong restore per nom. 203.220.105.139 (talk) 11:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC) user blocked indef. Carlossuarez46 00:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• Other than vandalizing Xoloz's user page, this user has made few contributions except on this subject. Carlossuarez46 00:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion. Deletion review is a chance to explain what was wrong with the deletion process, not to run to the other parent in the hope of a different decision. Stifle (talk) 11:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

: Comment Oh Dude! xoxo 203.220.105.139 (talk) 11:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC) user blocked indef. Carlossuarez46 00:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• Other than vandalizing Xoloz's user page, this user has made few contributions except on this subject. Carlossuarez46 00:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion. If there are significant reliable sources on this person, as required by WP:N, I might reconsider. But we don't restore (or keep) articles just to fill up a category; see WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. Mangojuice^talk 15:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion just nn. Carlossuarez46 00:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Connections Church (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|AfD)

Calling this unimportant is clear discrimination. Pastor Rocky veach has a weekly tv show, is the chairperson of an international church organization with thousands of churches in his church network, and has one of the most active community churches in his region. He used to be under COC america which was well known, but is no changing thigns over to the Connections Name, this is why there is confusino as to his importance. How can you decide that just because something is not important to you it's not important. He has thousands of people checking every day to see how he is doing. He is running humanitarian efforts with missionaries in the Dominican Republic, Chile, Africa, and Argentina. Connections also has several church locations that have branched off of this one. In addition, I have searched and found over 100 singular church pages that have existed forever. What criteria does one use to determine he impact a church is having? Are you an expert on Church Relevancy and Church Ministries? When I read the person who flagged me's articles on Harry Potter Actors it didn't mean a thing to me, because I had never seen the movie. Does the fact that I wouldn't recognize them make them any less famous? Clearly not. The fact that you are not from any of the places they operate, doesn't make them less important. If they are important to 500 people does that make their information less credible than 500,00. Or is it jus that admin's like to discriminate against anything religous, while they let other insignifigant garbage like from the person who flagged me's site slip through. I Guess his cult following of one character from Harry Potter is ok, but Church isn't. This is not the first time I have had Admin's revert an edit made for something christian only to revert to somethign anti-christian. Somehow they don't get that a negative bias still makes you biased. I would just like you to know that I am a managing editor in for a newspaper outside of NYC and I know the difference between spam, and equal access. If we call this spam, then we'll have to be fair across the board, and any small following of anything or anyone has to go. If this site is so unimportant and irrelivant, please tell me why this is so important El Celler de Can Roca If I need to right awards that they've recieved I will, but as my note said, I was still editing and searchign for sources. They have recieved several community service awards that I could list, as well as international recognitionImpact2d (talk) 11:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• The article did not make any serious claim to notability (as defined in our Wikipedia guideline) for the church. The notability of Rocky Veach, dubious though it seems, is irrelevant to the notability of Connections Church. Perhaps you can provide one reliable independent source about Connections Church (this Connections Churhc, that is, as the name is in use by many unrelated churhces apparently)? Or make at least a clear claim of notability for it? It has been noted by reliable independent sources for...? Fram (talk) 12:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn There is a clear claim made for notability: "has built a tight knit network with churches from Anchorage, Alaska to Colorado to New York." I think that is enough to avoid speedy for no assertiion of notability. It is not necessary to chow notability for this, just to claim something that could reasonably be so interpreted, and they've met that. Nor are sources needed. to pass speedy. Incidentally, I am not sure a church or association of churches is a "group" within the meaning of Speedy CSD A7. Possibly we need to specify "group" more precisely. (The article is a hybrid with a paragraph on an association of churches with claimed national reach, a specific church in Wappingers Falls, NY, and the pastor. ) I think the importance of churches is a matter that needs further thought. But this article will fairly clearly not pass AfD unreferenced--but it is started at the article that the article is in progress, and I think that should also have been respected. DGG (talk) 16:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Wikipedia has some settled general precedents. We usually delete articles on individual churches, unless there is significant evidence of notability. We almost always keep articles on denominations, unless there are copyright or other similar problems. The grey zone is in the middle, where this article lies. In part it is an article on a single local church. In part it is an article on a new/proto-denomination. This did claim some significance, and thus should not have been deleted under WP:CSD#A7. It merits an AFD nomination, as there is no evidence of independent reliable source coverage used to write the article. So list. GRBerry 20:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• I've read through the entire article as it existed at both points when it was speedy-deleted. I didn't see any credible evidence that this organization meets our generally-accepted inclusion criteria. But as a speedy-deletion being contested in good-faith, it can be restored and listed to AFD. Rossami (talk) 00:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist per GRBerry and Rossami. Please note that the article will need to have some independent, reliable sources in order to be kept around, assuming that it is restored. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
• No problem, I'll undelete the article and list it AfD. Being a network of churches can probably be seen as a claim to notability. As the original deleter, I guess no one will complain that I haven't waited the full five days here. Fram (talk) 08:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Wrike (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|AfD)

Besides PCWorld, Wrike was covered by such trustworthy media as eWEEK and Entrepreneur. The Technology Magazine marked Wrike as one of the best Collaboration tools. Moreover, Wrike was reviewed by such competent blogs as fastForwardblog, WebWorkerdaily, SME blog and tens more.

I would emphasize that being recognized at LeWeb3 means a lot. Wrike won in the b2b category among hundreds of other start-ups. Obviously, some google hits aren't in English about the conference, since it’s worldwide and it was held in Europe Abdullais4u (talk) 11:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Permit re-creation Not all the sources were included in the original article, and the notability of the award seemed to be un-demonstrated. If it is notable, then the article can probably stand. DGG (talk) 16:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Comment from deleting admin.; If there are proper sources then the reasons for deletion are no lomnger valid and the article can either be undeleted or recreated. I'd have done this myself had the nominator bothered to ask me before raising the DRV. Since its here, I'll leave it to the community to0 decide. Spartaz ^Humbug! 20:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Permit re-creation - the nominator has found further sources and should be allowed to recreate. However, I am still cautious about the future of this article. The LeWeb3 reference doesn't mention Wrike and the reference bullishly referred to as "The Technology Magazine marked Wrike as one of the best Collaboration tools." is simply a long list of such tools without any distinction being applied. BlueValour (talk) 00:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is the LeWeb3 reference that mentions Wrike: The winners of the start-up presentations at leWeb3. In March, 2007 Wrike caught the attention of Folksonomy and was interviewed. I found a couple of other passionate references to Wrike: The Innovation Evangelist, along with Google’s news StartupSquad mentions launch of Wrike’s professional version, Dave Garrett, the leader of the online community for IT project managers, describes Wrike as “an interesting, very very simple tool” etc. Abdullais4u

Arab Student Organization (Kent State University Chapter) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|AfD)

I have explained to the creators of this page why it was deleted and have helped them understand the concept of notability. Could an administrator please restore the page to my userspace for… er… sentimental purposes? The page will not be recreated. Thanks! — atchius (msg) 08:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• See User:Atchius/Arab Student Organization (Kent State University Chapter). Guy (Help!) 11:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Politicians by religion (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|CfD)

jc37 (talk · contribs) recently closed to CFR discussion at Category:Politicians by religion as a delete, claiming the keep votes were the same. Noting the discussion, there was 9 votes to keep, and 7 to delete, which at least should have merited no consensus. Also the creators of categories like Category:Hindu politicians were not made aware their cats were up for deletions and much painstaking work has been undone by this deletion. Some of the queries brought were that politicians that describe themselves as Methodist , Hindu, etc may hold totally divergent views. Yet I see that WP:BLP#Categories supports categorization based on belief, especially because of the connection between Religion and politics and because even if they hold divergent views, politicians still self-identify and profess beliefs that affect their work in politics. I respect jc37's decision but must disagree, being one of the users that has painstakingly documented religious beliefs that do affect politics in the world. Bakaman 02:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse closure - The crux of the issue is whether categories should exist for these, not whether the information may be relevant to to be inserted in each's article. Categorisation is more than just a note at the bottom of an article. And as I noted: "Several of the suggestions for "Keep"-ing apply more to whether such information is relevant/"notable" for inclusion in each politician's article, than whether such a grouping system should exist." - (I didn't claim that: "the keep votes were the same".) And of course the typical comment about consensus not being equivilent to counting "votes" applies here too. - jc37 02:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Categories are used to mark people who share two things in common. Politicians that feel that their faith affects their politics, or which is relevant to their politics (minority legislators) should be categorized by their religion and occupation. The marriage between religion and politics is so deep that it is impossible to divorce the two in many places. Even if politicians hold divergent views while professing the same religion, the fact that they self-identify and the fact it is relevant to notability should allow for categorization as noted by WP:BLP. BLP incidentally is an official policy, unlike WP:OCAT, which is merely a phrase used to stymie discussion. When jc talks about consensus, there was definitely no consensus to delete, so it should have at least ended up as no consensus.Bakaman 02:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
    • "Categories are used to mark people who share two things in common." - No they're not. That's called intersection, and may be done in many ways, including noting in articles, in lists, in templates, and, of course, categories. But it's not only not a definition of categories, it's frowned upon in in many cases. (See WP:OCAT for some examples.) - jc37 03:03, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:OCAT as noted is not a policy. The intersection of religion and politics is inherently notable and searching for politicians that share the same beliefs falls well within the spirit of WP:CAT. When we look at WP:OCAT#Non-notable_intersections_by_ethnicity.2C_religion.2C_or_sexual_preference, we can see it really does not apply. Articles like Political aspects of Islam, Christianity and politics, Hindu politics, Religion and politics are certainly head articles, since politics cannot be undertaken without politicians. Ergo this meets WP:BLP and does not fall under the purview of WP:OCAT.Bakaman 03:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Relist I read the discussion as no-consensus. Maybe a wider discussion will demonstrate consensus--though I rather doubt it. The argument for deletion seemed to be that it would cause arguments over inclusion, which i do not consider is not a valid reason. DGG (talk) 03:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Relist I'm concerned that this discussion may have improperly deemphasized issues of systemic bias. In the West, while religion is important in political life without question, it is one among many factors that influence elections. In India, for example, it may be the dominant factor, to the exclusion of anything else. I don't feel a group listing did justice to these differences. Xoloz (talk) 13:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Relist and consider other alternatives. Xoloz's argument is persuasive. It may be appropriate to have sub-categories of national cats for some nations. For the U.S., a "christian right politician" category might be appropriate even if no other religion category is. Send it back for some thinking outside the box. GRBerry 15:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn deletion (or, at least relist) - I don't find the closing interpretation following in-line with the consensus (or lack thereof) in the CFD discussion. True, the categories need to be better organized heirarchically, but they are both relevant and useful. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Comment to those suggesting relisting - Not to be cliche (smile), but I'm not sure that this addresses the closure. Honestly your comments are similar to the ones at the CfD. Just because something may be "notable", doesn't mean that there need be a category for it. And that's not being addressed in the "relist" comments above. If this was an AfD discussion, it could have been No consensus, or possibly even Keep. But this is a CfD discussion, and we have to look at more than the question of "notability". We need to determine whether a category grouping is to be kept. And that wasn't addressed by those supporting keeping the category, but it was by those opposing. As noted above (and in WP:CLS), one of the failings of categories is the lack of ability for references. And Xoloz's comment above indicates a prime example of why references and clarification would be needed for these. And I would presume citing WP:BLP, would actually suggest deleting the category due to lack of references. There are several precedents on CfD for this as well. (I'll have to find some links) And I note that several of these are actually recreations (including the Hindu one). - jc37 21:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

  Categories are the Wikipedia equivalent to an index of related topics. I stand by my opinion that relisting is right, so that we can determine the proper way to categorize. My argument is that, in some cases, these are in fact appropriate groupings, and that one or more CFDs that actually try to figure out which ones are appropriate needs to be held. The mass listing very clearly didn't even try. GRBerry 22:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

  Not to get sidelined too much here, but just a queck clarification: "Categories are the Wikipedia equivalent to an index of related topics." - No, they're "categories", groups of things, which may be organised in many ways, but are not necessarily indices (per WP:CAT#Categories do not form a tree). Wikipedia:Quick index is our index, and Portal:Categorical index is our categorical index. - jc37 06:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

  To restate my point in a different form, if religion in politics is the dominant factor that I believe it to be, it is reasonable to expect that readers might wish to navigate among related articles on that basis -- this is the purpose of categories. Xoloz (talk) 08:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

  Perhaps, but without references showing that these are truly "dominant", who's going to arbitrarily decide on the category's membership? No Wikipedian who's following WP:BLP or WP:V, I presume? - jc37 09:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

  Whether this assertion of mine is correct is one element that the relisting would investigate, and one reason a relisting is warranted. Xoloz (talk) 09:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. I don't think vote-counting is valueless, but here, the argument weight was definitely on the delete side. In places in the world where religion defines politics, those religions have built political parties to which these people can be assigned.--Mike Selinker (talk) 06:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Not all people espousing a religion in the public sphere choose to be part of a religiously based political party. The Indian Union Muslim League is there in India. However most "Muslim politicians" like Abdul Rehman Antulay, Hamid Ansari, Tariq Anwar, and Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi (who belongs to a generally "Hindu" party, the Bharatiya Janata Party) do not associate with a "Muslim political party". And religion definitely defines politics in India.Bakaman 02:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn as no consensus, or relist. The closer's rationale for dismissing the keep arguments is bad - in fact only a couple of the keep arguments didn't address issues they were supposed to address, and even there, there is a good reason behind those comments when we read between the lines; the only comment that is truly worthless is the "athiest propaganda" one. Plus, religion is a defining issue for politicians much more often than when there are religious political parties. It may not be especially important if an American politician is Anglican or Baptist, but it is certainly a defining characteristic that they are protestant. Certainly, religion is a defining characteristic for any American politician that isn't protestant; Mitt Romney's religion, for instance, gets a lot of mention in the news. Mangojuice^talk 15:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn deletion The closing interpretation was not in-line with the consensus.These categories are useful and relevantShyamsunder 08:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn deletion - As per above.-Bharatveer (talk) 13:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion here's the damned that we did for a multiple nomination: I for one think that the stated religion of various politicos isn't defining: Giuliani is pro-gay rights, divorced, an admitted adulterer, and pro-choice so we categorize him "Roman Catholic" because he is, so it shows little of what someone lumped into this category really believes. So, the labels are simplistic and one-dimensional and people aren't. However, as some have said religion matters in some countries' politics. But that argument certainly doesn't apply to many of these categories, particularly where the population is virtually uniformly of a particular religion or has a state religion and the politician is in that religion: Category:Afghan Muslim politicians, Category:Indonesian Muslim politicians, Category:Iranian Muslim politicians, Category:Iraqi Muslim politicians, Category:Libyan Muslim politicians, Category:Pakistani Muslim politicians, and Category:Palestinian Muslim politicians, are totally non-defining. Can someone even find a non-Muslim politician in Afghanistan or Libya? So, any overturn should really reflect the reality of the arguments of the overturners (and no doubt they'll be the majority), and not overturn categories that really fail WP:CATGRS. Carlossuarez46 00:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

There are numerous non-Muslim politicians in Pakistan and Indonesia, and many of them have attained some fame, such as Krishan Bheel, Khatumal Jeevan and Dewa Made Beratha. In Afghanistan, Awtar Singh is there, a lone Sikh politician in Afghanistan. The label is there as a label. If Giuliani says he is Catholic in the political sphere, we mark him as a Catholic politician, its that simple. Religion is generally a uniter (among those who follow a certain one), not a divider.Bakaman

• Overturn deletion religion has a big part to play in politcs.--D-Boy 18:22, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
• Two quotes:
  • Wikipedia:Verifiability - The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.
  • Wikipedia:Categorization of people - Limit the number: Try to limit the number of categories. For example, a film actor that holds a law degree should be categorized as a film actor, but not as a lawyer unless his or her legal career was notable in its own right. However it is also important to ensure that categories contain all of the most relevant articles. This means that some prominent people, such as senior politicians who have held many different offices, will be in a considerable number of categories. Apart from these factual categories, for those categories that require an assessment of personal characteristics (e.g. art movement style...), try to limit the number of categories to what is most essential about this person, something in the vein of: "give me 4 or 5 words that best characterize this person."
• So (if, as it seems, we're replaying the CfD discussion here), are these politicians verifiably notable for being members of a religion? - jc37 19:06, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

There are really no issues with your first quote (covered by BLP) and your second quote would also validate the "overturn" idea. This would happen because the most famous politicians overtly specify their religious beliefs in the political sphere meaning that it is essential to their identity in both private and work-related spheres, ergo the Politicians by religion would be valid.Bakaman 01:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

No actually, the latter quote invalidates your postulation. In other words, if they were not a politician, would being a member of <x> religion be notable for the person, so as to categorise them by it. In most cases, the answer is: no. And here's the fun part: even if it turns out that a certain politician is notable for being a member of a religion, next we'd have to determine if the intersection of the two is notable, or if the person should just be categorised separately under the two separate categories. And in this case, the intersection isn't any more notable that "Politicians who support the war in IRAQ", or "Politicians who are pro-choice". And we typically don't categorise politicians "by issue or belief", as is noted by at least a few editors above. I'm sure I can find innumerable precedents to support that. It's just simply not "clear-cut" enough for a generic category heading.(Again, see WP:CLS, which explains the weaknesses of categories.) - jc37 02:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

In most cases the answer is a resounding yes. Mitt Romney's Mormonism, Keith Ellison's Islam(ism?), Joe Lieberman's Judaism all make them notable. Obviously people are notable first for being a politician, but religion is something that (gasp?) trasncends issues like pro-choice, anti-gay, ten commandments in schools. The intersection of the two is sufficiently notable in America, and extremely notable outside it, especially in the Indian subcontinent, Africa and South America. Looking at notability, the phrase Islam and politics nets about 5x as many ghits as "Iraq War and politics". The term "christian politician" nets 10x as many ghits as"pro-life politician". It is much more notable and clear cut. Religion and politics are intertwined, and the fact is that religion is the most potent force of self-identification around the world. Please do look at the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy or the recent Sudanese teddy bear blasphemy case. It was due to the actions of two Muslim politicians from Britain that Pres. Bashir, another Muslim politician' decided to pardon the teacher, Gibbons.Bakaman 18:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion. I think some users might be overstating the importance of religion in politics, and need to adopt a more worldwide view. In the US, it is probably true that religion plays a part, but in most of Europe it is simply not relevant. (Except in extreme circumstances such as Northern Ireland, but even these issues are better described in political or sectarian, rather than religious terms). Religion is only a factor if it informs, and is seen to inform, the person's political views. Anything else is meaningless over-categorisation, and in any case serves little purpose as two people can be technically in the same category but still have vastly different beliefs (see previous comments). --carelesshx _talk 03:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

That is why we categorize by religion and not by belief. We dont categorize people as "Anti-War Gay-hating Democrats" because that would be meaningless. However categorization of people's religion is allowed on Wikipedia, and as such it is a useful means of seeing the influence of certain religions on certain political spheres, and viewing the diversity of viewpoints claimed religious brethren can espouse.Bakaman 18:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse, good call by Jc37. It's not that we don't want the information (we do want it) but that categories are not such a good way of representing it. >Radiant< 22:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse - if the religion is an important part of a political affiliation, that will be made obvious by the article and categorization of the political party. --After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 14:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Category:Paintings by artist (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|CfD)

Jc37 (talk · contribs) recently closed the CfR discussion Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 November 20#Paintings by artist as no consensus, defaulting in keep as is. I've had a discussion with him/her about this (see User talk:Aecis#Question about your CfR closure), and after some thoughts, I have decided to request a review of this closure. I had requested that ten daughter categories of Category:Paintings by artist be renamed to include the full name of the painter, based on the title of the corresponding article. This rename would conform the ten categories to the standard category naming within the daughters of Category:Works by artist. During the discussion, User:Johnbod expressed some doubt, in view of the fact that some of these full names were actually nicknames. The only oppose !voter was User:HeartofaDog, who stated that "I would only think this was justified if there were two or more artists of the same name - otherwise it seems superfluous." Basically, both editors appeared unhappy with the existing naming standard of including the full name of the artist. But as I said to Jc37, this might result in a discussion to change the convention, but I see no ground for suspending the application of the standard/convention altogether. Aecis^Brievenbus 00:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Note - Wikipedia:Categories for discussion is where "deletion, merging, and renaming of categories (pages in the Category namespace) is discussed." -- Jreferee t/c 02:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I know, but this review is to assess the closure of one such CfR, as I indicated in the very first sentence of my request. Aecis^Brievenbus 12:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Rather than attempt to re-comment here, I ask that the closer (and those reviewing) to please take my comments at User talk:Aecis#Question about your CfR closure into consideration. - jc37 00:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Comment It looks like of six comments, one was oppose, and two were endorse (I took "rename" and "support" as "endorse the suggestion"). I would accrue significance to consistency too, but I'm surprised there is no apparent consensus to that effect among art editors? And a result of no action when there is no consensus seems reasonable. Pete St.John (talk) 00:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
  • When looking strictly at the numbers, I agree with you: one person opposed the CfR (HeartofaDog), two supported it (Mike Selinker and SMcCandlish) and two provided some additional considerations (Johnbod and Peterkingiron). I'm obviously biased as the nom, but what they appeared to oppose, or what they were reluctant about, was imo the naming standard in general, not so much the application of the naming standard to these particular categories. In terms of the weight of the arguments, I see a consensus to rename the categories, with the option of a new naming standard being formed, resulting in a CfR the other way around. Aecis^Brievenbus 13:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Discuss at WikiProject_Visual_arts. The matter at issue was the renaming of the pages within the category to include the full names of the artist, and there seems no agreement on the question. Whether this should follow the convention for writers is not obvious one way or the other. DGG (talk) 16:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, but relist some individually. I wanted them all renamed, but some salient arguments about nicknaming should at least give the closer pause. The "No consensus" close allows us to tackle each independently, and I'm sure Jc is cool with that.--Mike Selinker (talk) 06:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

  As I noted above, please consider User talk:Aecis#Question about your CfR closure, in which I said some similar things : ) - jc37 06:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• Relist - per nominator. Only opposer gave a pretty weak argument for a fairly common sense move. I see 3 supports for a move, and the one aforementioned oppose. No reason for this to be closed as no consensus. The Evil Spartan 09:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
• Divide up and relist. The problem is that these are not all equivalent. The Botticelli problem has already been brought up. Carpaccio is always Carpaccio; I believe he ended up at his full name to avoid conflict with the similarly named dish. Chagall and some others, on the other hand, should definitely be renamed. Chick Bowen 21:43, 3 December 2007 (UTC)