- User:Cool Cat (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|MfD)
Improper closure of an MFD discussion. This page was a redirect from an old userpage to a new one, and one that contains over 2,000 incoming links. The page was originally deleted at the request of the user, User:White Cat. The deletion was seem as unnecessary and made things needlessly confusing for edits both editors finding Cool/White Cat, and for users following those links. I recreated the redirect, per Wikipedia:User page. White Cat tried to place the speedy delete tag on the page once again, but it no longer qualified for speedy delete. It was then taken to MFD. Two admins have attempted to close the MFD, both on incorrect grounds. The first admin was reverted by myself, with support from other users including at least two other administrators whom felt taking it to DVR wasn't necessary. It has since been speedy closed again, but now the page has been protected.
Speedy closed as "user request" (WP:CSD#U1), however U1 states that if U1 is contested it should be taken to MFD: " If the deletion occurs immediately, others may request undeletion if they feel there was in fact a need to retain the page. In such a case, the page should be undeleted and listed on Miscellany for deletion for a period of five days following the deletion of the user page. "
Improper close, plain and simple. Even if you don't feel such things are necessary, they are supported by policy and guidelines, and by several people from the MFD. Something to note is that even if the MFD got speedy closed that still won't prevent the user page from being recreated. Recreating pages is not a 3RR violation, as some people have suggested, especially since there is no consensus or policy that requires the page to have been deleted. This is normally not even an issue we face, because long before that we take such situations to XfD. If you feel this redirect should be deleted, then all the more reason to continue the MFD, which would create a consensus to keep deleted.
This isn't even a big deal, but it's somewhat bizarre that both White Cat and the deleting admins feel so strongly about deleting the page. No reason has been cited for deletion, and there would be nothing to gain from it, and it would only inconvenience and make things confusing for others. Keeping a redirect hurts no one, and shouldn't be a controversial issue. But, for whatever reason, it is controversial, and that's what we have the MFD for.
Also, no one is saying anyone has to have a userpage, that is not the function the page is having at this time. Rather, this page is now pointing users to the new user name that Cat has chosen. White Cat has made it very clear that he did not change usernames to vanish or start fresh, and has been completely open about who he is and was (complete with links on his current user page). Of course users can have their own pages deleted, but that's not the issue here. It's a redirect, for the sake of a great amount of past discussion and many incoming links. It actually benefits White Cat (which makes the situation even more bizarre).
I'd like to quote something David Levy said it to Newyorkbrad (the final admin to close the MFD):
- "No offense, but I don't perceive you as a neutral party (to any greater extent than I'm a neutral party). You didn't weigh the arguments and arrive at a consensus-based decision. You threw them out and substituted your own judgement for that of the community (instead of simply expressing your opinion in the discussion). —David Levy 22:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)"
And having said all that, relist MFD -- Ned Scott 05:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep deleted - the old talk page is still there. Anyone looking for the user can easily find him. I don't know or care why he wants his old page deleted, but as someone who has been harassed before, I can certainly understand that there might be a good reason. At any rate, unless there is evidence of bad behavior or some such thing, we delete user pages on demand. Five admins have deleted this page. One person has recreated it four times and reverted an admin's close of the MFD twice. Something is wrong somewhere along the line. --BigDT 05:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- This is not the MFD discussion itself. The closing was improper, regardless of how you feel about the situation. Also, even if I was the one who recreated the page and reverted the closure, others (including two administrators) supported that. -- Ned Scott 05:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Other people have not re-created it in order to allow the discussion to proceed and be well-considered, but that was truncated. The fact that more people were edit-warring to achieve a certain outcome does not mean that outcome is right or better. No reason whatsoever has been provided by User:Cool Cat for deleting the page, and if the reason were harassment, the effective way to end harassment is to actually create a new account completely severed from the old one. If there were harassment, migrating all his contribs and making 10,000 edits to change his signature advertising the change to everyone with a watchlist would be the least effective way to end it. —Centrx→talk • 05:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Ned, you and everyone else would be much better off if you would let Cool Cat (or whatever he wants to call himself) be and move on to other things. Seriously. Chick Bowen 05:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'd love to move on, but others have insisted that a DVR is required instead of letting a simple MFD continue. -- Ned Scott 05:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep deleted This is grossly unnecessary. --MichaelLinnear 05:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- What you personally feel is unnecessary is not a reason to keep this deleted. An improper closure is an improper closure. -- Ned Scott 05:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Closing the MfD was unnecessary, and the people who closed it unnecessarily insisted that the issue be brought here. —Centrx→talk • 05:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Abstain. While I agree that this closure was improper, our ultimate goal is to build consensus (not drama). I've been discussing this matter with White Cat, and he has expressed a willingness to work toward some sort of compromise with the community (beginning with the creation of a temporary page at User:Cool Cat pending a long-term solution). Therefore, I urge you to withdraw this listing (at least for the time being). —David Levy 05:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep deleted - Users can have their own user pages deleted for any reason - end of story - thats why they are user pages. There shouldn't have even been an MFD. The amount of time/text wasted on this already is pretty ridiculous/hilarious/sad. Wickethewok 05:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know how many times I have to quote this: " If the deletion occurs immediately, others may request undeletion if they feel there was in fact a need to retain the page. In such a case, the page should be undeleted and listed on Miscellany for deletion for a period of five days following the deletion of the user page." Your reason for keeping it deleted is not supported by the deletion policy, which directed us to an MFD. You can disagree with that all you want, but that's the way it is (for now). -- Ned Scott 05:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Also, that presumes that the account's contribs remain at the same username. In this case, they were all moved elsewhere, which without a redirect would be mysterious. —Centrx→talk • 05:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Reminding everyone that this is not a vote. It's been shown that this has been an improper closure, and unless you can show otherwise then how you feel about the deletion itself really isn't relevant to the MFD being relisted or not. -- Ned Scott 05:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Any admin can speedy any page that falls into the criteria for speedy deletion. The fact that there was an MFD going on changes nothing. This was not an out of process deletion - it was a legitimate speedy deletion. --BigDT 05:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It is disputed that it actually qualifies for speedy deletion. I suppose that could be discussed on User talk:Cool Cat, but otherwise the best place is an MfD. —Centrx→talk • 05:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse Deletion. I've looked at WP:CSD#U1, and the history back through April, and cannot find what Ned Scott quotes above. U1 reads: Personal subpages, upon request by their user. In some rare cases there may be administrative need to retain the page. Also, sometimes, main user pages may be deleted as well. See Wikipedia:User page for full instructions and guidelines. Also, relative to the Right to Vanish, I know of nothing that would require White Cat to have a redirect from his old name. The original deletion seems proper, and I don't see any need for it to have been at MfD in the first place. I'm more concerned about Ned's actions in this, the extremes to which he is forcing this issue. --InkSplotch 06:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It's on the linked page with full instructions. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 06:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- "See Wikipedia:User page for full instructions and guidelines." As for my actions, I would not call what I am doing an "extreme"... I do get worked up when I see people side step discussions and force an issue, though, but who wouldn't? You're basically asking why I care. For one, he's using this deletion to justify changing his old sig in talk archives, which he was forced to stop, and was reverted on. Second, and probably the bigger motivation, regardless of what the MFD is about the forced closure was totally unacceptable. It's alright if other people don't care, and if they think it's silly, but that's no reason to throw other people's valid concerns out the window. No one is asking that anyone cares about this, we're just asking for a simple discussion on the matter. -- Ned Scott 06:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, I see it now. Thanks for pointing it out. Well, it's a stronger argument now, but I'm still looking into things...particularly this bit about Cat updating his old signatures. If anyone has a link to the discussion on AN, I'd appreciate it. At this time, I'm letting my vote stand. CSD is a policy, the supporting User Page is only a guideline. Ned, I called your actions extreme because you seem to be the only one carrying this torch, and it seems more disruptive to me than just letting Cat fix his old signature links. I referenced Right to Vanish, and I still feel it applies here...'Vanish' isn't just leaving Wikipedia, it's also a right to a fresh start. You're causing a lot more drama for Cat trying to do just this than is at all necessary. I'll keep reading up on this, but for now my comment stands. --InkSplotch 13:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm bringing this to DRV because I think the actions of the closing admins was completely inappropriate. I'm more concerned about this affecting future MFDs than I am about the redirect itself. Keep in mind, from my point of view, I was simply making a redirect. Undoing the admins incorrect actions was easy, justified, and allowed a consensus building discussion to continue. The early closure of the MFD is what escalated the situation. -- Ned Scott 03:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Revert waring is never right and is never justified and is to be discouraged. If you disagree with a deletion you take it to deletion review assuming its worth spending time on it. Pointlessness of your policy-lawyering is simply jaw dropping... -- Cat chi? 06:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Do you even know what the hell you are talking about? Nothing I've said is even close to policy-lawyering. If the closing admins disagreed with the MFD they should have brought it up in the MFD. Blatantly incorrect actions are ones we should simply fix. A revert is not always a bad thing, and was only done because... policy and guidelines backed me up, others involved (including other admins) felt speedy re-opening was ok and DRV was needless, the speedy close was a disruption, taking it to DRV would only cause more disruption, and the rationale thing to do was simply continue with the existing discussion, and I could go on and on. I have done nothing wrong with those reverts, and rather, it was those who speedy closed who are in the wrong. -- Ned Scott 07:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Do I know what I am talking (typing) about? I am pretty certain I am or else I wouldn't be putting anything here. You seem to be unfamiliar with WP:CIVIL. Have a read of it, then reread it.
The procedure in correcting "blatantly incorrect actions" is clearly laid out with WP:DR. Unless the edits are destructive compromising encyclopedias quality that require urgent action (such as vandalism, blant copyright violations) you have no reason to "revert" much less revert war. I see no evidence of a compromise in encyclopedias quality with the deletion of a non-critical userpage redirect which in your words is a "trivial situation". See WP:3rr#Exceptions for when "revert waring" is fine - even then it is more than discouraged. So, since it isn't critical, you are expected to take it to the person's talk page you are disagreeing with at a minimum. In this spesific case that would be me and each admin that has deleted the page or closed the MfD. Speedy close was well inline with WP:IAR if nothing else quited qualifies such as WP:CSD#U1 or WP:CSD#G7. Further revert waring against multiple admin closures is again disruption. You have border-lined violating WP:3rr by doing so if not crossed it. Waisting the communities time by forcing a trivial matter to the point of a MfD and later a DR is disruption and to be blunt quite dicky.
-- Cat chi? 09:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ned Scott, thats a combative mentality frowned upon on wikipedia. -- Cat chi? 13:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Improper close, plain and simple. He was trying to short circuit a fight that was getting pretty nasty, but speedy closes only throw gasoline on that fire. Better to give it the full five days to burn out. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 06:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Strong endorse deletion, m:Right to vanish, valid U1 - the page has no apparent need to be retained, and an existing MFD does not disqualify a speedy by any means if the page meets one of the criteria; in this case, the page was {{db-user}}'d, etc. Stop forcing this issue; apparently it's not enough to edit war over whether the redirect should exist. Furthermore, you should not have reverted the MFD closures at all, as you are not an admin; if you had a problem you should have brought it up with the closing admin or came here first. --Coredesat 07:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- This user does not wish to vanish, it has nothing to do with the right to vanish at all. Second, being an admin or not has no bearing on being able to revert a closure. Being an admin does not give one more authority, it just means they are trusted with admin tools. Reverting the MFD was an attempt to make the issue less of a big deal and to not waste people's time. Reasons for retaining the redirect have been provided. The U1 CSD says specifically to use WP:USER for detailed instructions, where it says that an MFD does disqualify it from being a speedy. Disagree with that all you want, but that's what it says. It is not a valid U1 deletion, and that's a fact. -- Ned Scott 08:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- endose I closed this MfD as a speedy delete and was reverted for some reason - Brad did the right thing. Now, go do something useful.--Docg 09:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse. Get on with life. Trebor 09:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- You not having an interest in this situation is not a valid reason to endorse an improperly closed MFD. -- Ned Scott 03:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: In other words... you revert warred with 5 admins and the user owning the userpage. -- Cat chi? 10:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- -- Cat chi? 10:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse per some prior DRV discussions where it's better to overrule policy for common sense. – Chacor 10:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Considering how split the MFD was before it was closed, it's not accurate to call the speedy close common sense. -- Ned Scott 04:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse Deletion The page was deleted in accordance with common sense and policy (I can't believe I said that). CharonX/talk 11:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Sigh. I'd make a fuss about how, once again, "I know best now shut up" has been a fellow admin's response to a discussion he doesn't agree with, but, really, what's the point? Neil (►) 12:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Speedy endorse - if it isn't U1 it would be G7. Will (We're flying the flag all over the world) 14:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- You mean G8? :D -- Cat chi? 14:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep deleted I am more and more convinced that Wikipedia is (collectively) insane. What possible reason is there to not grant this user the courtesy afforded to any other user who asks it, including a number of notable pests? This should never have been at MfD in the first place. Thatcher131 14:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- The difference is the other users' contribs were not moved, thus severing the user account from its history. There are also no personal information or harassment issues, because the user has kept all his contribs connected to his new account. —Centrx→talk • 17:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep deleted echoing Thatcher's concerns above. White Cat has been extremely cooperative in keeping links to significant elements of his previous identity on his new userpage (including the block log). This seems to me a straightforward CSD U1 request and NYB was correct to delete it. I remain unpersuaded that the deletion of this page is harmfull or that White Cat has to prove it is beneficial. Deletion of userspace is performed on request except in exceptional circumstances - this seems fairly mundane to me. WjBscribe 14:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment from the deleting administrator or I should say from one of the five admins who deleted this redirect. I re-deleted the redirect by request of the user involved. Simply put, the idea that this trivial matter warranted a five-day community-wide discussion is inane. I do not understand why this matter is being pressed so vigorously—or indeed, at all—and no one has been willing to tell me, which I find extraordinary. I respect our deletion processes and yet, there comes a limit to the extent in which we should engage in process for its own sake and it is submitted that with all respect we have reached it. Editors interested in debating policy issues have several hundred more productive discussions in which they could participate to choose from. Newyorkbrad 15:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Simply, if someone wishes to find the contribs that used to be associated with User:Cool Cat, or to contact that user, they are going to spend time finding the new account, and then rather than making everyone waste that time create a simple redirect which there is no reason to delete. This is not process for its own sake; the discussion is supposed to get understanding on the issue, which apparently none of the five admins who deleted it have. —Centrx→talk • 17:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It is a trivial situation, but it was required if Cat wanted to get his userpage deleted. He was the one who wished to press the issue in the first place, and he could have easily just let it go. I haven't let it go because of how inappropriate it was for you to just throw out the active discussion, incorrectly citing policy, when in fact you were just applying your own rationale. -- Ned Scott 04:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Week Overturn - as this redirect is useful and valid and the closure was out of processes. Week because... who cares? ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- comment Technically Ned Scott is correct: WP:USER#How do I delete my user and user talk pages? does contain the text he quotes. it also says "Where there is no significant abuse and no administrative need to retain the personal information, you can request that your own user page and user subpages be deleted" and the clear implication is that such pages are normally deleted on request unless ther is a good reason to retain them, and the primary reson cited is "evidence of policy violations that may need to be kept. which i gather does not apply in this case. The early close was IMO unwise, given that at least one editor was so striongly pushing for retention of this page -- as so often, a speedy clsoe made things worse, not better. But in this case i can't see any likelyhood that a resumption of the MfD would result in the page being kept, so unsually for me
endorse, despite improper process. DES (talk) 17:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- A lot of people on the MfD said it should be kept; in terms of numbers it is evenly split and the people saying it should be kept have good reasons to do so, so where are you getting your evaluation of "likelihood"? —Centrx→talk • 17:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- On rereadign the MfD it seems that soem users on both sides of the matter were being rather WP:POINTy about the issue, but it was not as clear as my earlier hasty scan indicated how this would come out. I'll change my view to weak overturn, to let consensus form. I express no final opnion on whether deelting this page is or is not a good thing, i donm't see it as a vital issue either way, and not of the reasons cited at the MfD strike me as showing why it is so important. DES (talk) 19:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorsing this as a matter of course. If there is much more of this disgusting hounding of Cool Cat, as his mentor I'll raise the matter with the arbitrators. --Tony Sidaway 18:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Telling Cat that he can't just throw a fit and get his way is 'not "disgusting hounding". I don't know why he over-reacts like he does to such minor situations, but that doesn't give him a free pass to fuck consensus. -- Ned Scott 03:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Endorse and I seriously question the motivation of the nominator, who has a history of tensions with the individual in question. bastique 18:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse deletion per Thatcher131. Why not afford the user the ordinary courtesy granted to other users? Also, why make an issue of something that really doesn't matter? ElinorD (talk) 22:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- U1 is there because it's almost always non-controversial, for normal situations there will be no issue and no one will care. It is not a right, and I suspect the people who think it's a right is nothing more than a misconception developed because we lacked situations such as this one. It's not a right, it's just something that is ok for 99 percent of the time. And the ones making an issue over this are the closing admins, who've been far more disruptive than the MFD itself. When I'm acting with our guidelines and policy backing me up, I don't see that as me acting alone. -- Ned Scott 03:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Bah! Ned Scott should have let this slide; but, when he didn't, admins should have followed the rules carefully. This conflict would have been over by now if either party had behaved well. —SlamDiego←T 01:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: No, right now we would be in the second day of a pointless 5-day MfD, quite possibly followed by a trip here to DRV anyway, all in the service of nothing in particular. And in the meantime the user in good standing who, for whatever idiosyncratic reason, didn't want the redirect there would be annoyed by having content on his own (ex-)userpage against his will. Newyorkbrad 01:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- So what? The correct thing, regardless of how you feel about the situation, would have been to let the MFD run. It was no longer a speedy deletion criteria, plain and simple. It doesn't matter how stupid it was, the closure was wrong. This is not a vote, and the issue is very clear here. We relist XfDs that are both improperly closed and controversial (at the time it was split right down the middle). You will not be allowed to ignore our deletion policy twice. -- Ned Scott 03:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Your fervent insistence that we must continue to discuss a dispute of this nature, no matter how trivial the dispute may be or how misbegotten the nature of your concern with it, simply because there exists a rule that arguably authorizes the discussion, is without merit. Frankly, at this point my only regret at having speedy-closed the MfD is that it disqualifies me from being the one to speedy-close the DRV. Newyorkbrad 04:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- MFDs shouldn't always have to be a life or death situation, and many of us felt it was still worth discussing. At this point, it's not worth the effort, but that is because of your doing (and Doc's technically speaking). You forced it closed, demanding that anyone who have a problem with it to take it to DRV. When I did.. you complained about that. What gives? You are to blame just as much as I am for making this a big deal. -- Ned Scott 04:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- If it is so trivial then there should be no problem with leaving the redirect in place. —Centrx→talk • 04:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse deletion. I've always seen deletion of pages in userspace as a right (in fact if not in name), unless deleting the page would serve to obscure a history of disruption. Even if Cat has done some bad things, deleting his (her?) old userpage doesn't obscure that very much, so I see no reason not to allow it. -Amarkov moo! 03:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Please understand that this is the DRV. You are expressing that you feel the deletion is correct, which would be an appropriate comment for the MFD. The DRV is discussing if the closure was correct or not. Regardless of how you feel about this being a right or not, the instructions on the matter says that other users have a right to put this up on MFD. While I do think there is a history of disruption, that's not the only reason for which one can contest a userpage deletion. For one, Cat is using this deletion as leverage to continue his sig changes, an attempt at validating the action, which he was forced to stop doing. -- Ned Scott 03:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- But your contesting of the deletion is based on CSD U1 not applying. I'm saying that I believe it does, and if a speedy criterion applies, the closure was perfectly correct. -Amarkov moo! 04:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- "If the deletion occurs immediately, others may request undeletion if they feel there was in fact a need to retain the page. In such a case, the page should be undeleted and listed on Miscellany for deletion for a period of five days following the deletion of the user page." Correct me if I am wrong, but is this not in plain english? -- Ned Scott 04:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: That's about the userpage content itself, not a redirect page created and insisted upon by someone else. This is ridiculous already. Newyorkbrad 04:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- It doesn't say that at all, brad. It makes no distinction between the function of the page, and only says that if others feel there is a reason it should exist then it should be taken to MFD. -- Ned Scott 04:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ned, you left out the previous sentence. "If there has been no disruptive behavior meriting the retention of that personal information, then the sysop can delete the page straight away in order to eliminate general public distribution of the history containing the information." That passage you keep quoting is talking about a need to retain the page because of disruptive behavior. There is no evidence of disruptive behavior in a simple redirect, thus an MFD is out of order and it is a valid U1 deletion. --BigDT 04:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- The page content can be speedy deleted if there is no evidence of disruptive behavior, but that is not the only reason such a deletion can be contested. It's Wikilawiering to suggest that the paragraph is encompassing any and all situations that could possibly apply. "if they feel there was in fact a need to retain the page" doesn't say "if they feel there was in fact a need to retain the page for evidence of disruptive behavior" -- Ned Scott 04:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- And keep in mind that U1 is assuming it's a normal user page, and not something like a redirect to a new user name. You are over-extending the rationale of U1 to a gray area, where it no longer becomes a clear criteria being met. -- Ned Scott 04:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- There is no gray area. Cool Cat is still his user name. It's still his user page. I'm not required to have a user page. You're not required to have a user page. That paragraph you keep quoting from talks about disruptive behavior before the sentence you quote and it talks about policy violations after the sentence you quote. The logical assumption in my mind is that your sentence is talking about a need to retain the page because of policy violations. Any time that a deletion is contested, deletion review is always the proper course of action. When someone keeps recreating an article that is speedied, we salt the thing and tell them to take it to DRV. DRV, not MFD, is the correct process for contesting deletion and I have seen before and see no readon now to override his right to delete his own user page. --BigDT 04:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Straw-man, I'm not saying Cool Cat has to have a userpage, I'm saying the benefit of having a redirect to his new account outweighs his desire to have a redlink (for no reason, whatsoever) on his old account. Deleting user pages has never been a right, it's just been something that is normally uncontroversial. Do not confuse the two. Deleting the redirect was a WP:POINTy move by Cat to justify his sig changes, and only causes confusion and negative side effects to those trying to follow past discussions. And if the only reason for retaining the connection between the two accounts is disruptive behavior, Cool Cat has fulfilled that requirement, and I've said so since the start of this whole thing. It's a very gray area, because none of the policy was set up for this kind of situation, and it's anything but a clear speedy deletion criteria. You might feel strongly about this, but your feelings are not backed up by policy, and you should have brought your thoughts to the MFD. -- Ned Scott 05:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- How does it cause any more confusion than for anyone else with no user page? His old talk page is still there and is a redirect, so if you click on the redlinked user page, you would see a blue linked "discussion" that will then redirect you to his new talk page. That's exactly the same number of clicks that it takes to get to anyone else that doesn't have a user page. --BigDT 05:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- We're not talking about people who don't have a user page for the current account they are using. Regardless of how many clicks it takes to get to his userpage, speedy closing the MFD as U1 was improper. -- Ned Scott 05:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Moving all the contribs elsewhere changes the situation. Normally, if someone deletes their user page, all the contribs would still be in the same place, and the user would still contactable on their talk page. —Centrx→talk • 04:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment At this point, if someone would mark the MFD as something like "no consensus" or "no one gives a fuck", I'd be content with that. People are right, it's not worth this utter bizarre resistance just to help improve things for other editors. I no longer seek a relisting, but the closure is still improper and not supported by policy (as it was claimed). I don't know how the others who are supporting relisting feel, but I suspect that they wouldn't object to this. -- Ned Scott 05:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: I hope that anyone who knows my work on this site realizes that my goal here was to put an end to an unnecessary and bitter distraction from our main goals, not to perpetuate one. I still think my closure was proper, and am sorry you disagree, but if changing the wording of the close would reduce discontent I'd be happy to do that. Newyorkbrad 11:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Inquiry: Wouldn't any non-keep close rationale be cited as referance on similar future cases? -- Cat chi? 14:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- We don't keep "precedent" files on matters of minimal importance, and hopefully there won't be any "similar future cases." If I am able to get this resolved please don't complicate it further. Newyorkbrad 14:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- What will happen is about 3 months from now someone will find a comment by User:Cool Cat and wish to contact the user, but he will find there that the user page is gone and all the user's contribs have disappeared. Then, he will find the username he changed to and contact him there, while doing the polite thing and putting a redirect on User:Cool Cat so that other user's do not have such difficulty. If your purpose is to dispose of the issue so summarily that you have done so arbitrarily, then you may as well have done so by leaving the redirect in place. Since you think the issue is so trivial that the outcome does not matter, then the easier route to dispose of it would be to take the course of action that will not result in an endless stream of innocent people innocently re-creating the redirect, which will then either be let to remain, in which case your MfD decision is null, or it will be re-deleted, citing the MfD as precedent. —Centrx→talk • 18:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, if the user types "User:Cool Cat" into the search box, as of this moment, the redirect still comes up (because there is one at User:Cool cat with the small "c", even though User:Cool Cat is a redlink, which makes this issue even less important than when we started. I feel brain cells dying off every time I think about this issue and how many words have been spent on it. I plan to say nothing further about this matter. If I start to change my mind, stop me. Newyorkbrad 19:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I strongly believe people will have better things to do in three months than meddle with my userpage. You cannot really have a second guess as the deletion rationale. -- Cat chi? 22:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- They are trying to contact you, or investigate the mystery of the missing contribs, and then after going through the trouble of finding it out, they create a redirect, which requires about 5 seconds of time, and saves anyone else the future trouble. —Centrx→talk • 21:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
- Brad, "user request and precedent" was cited for the closing rationale. "precedent" I think should go all together, since this situation is not the same as the others cited on the MFD. If "user request" could be note that the U1 application was disputed by others, I'd be happy with that. Something like "It was disputed if U1 applied or not, but the matter has been dropped to de-escalate the dispute". -- Ned Scott 06:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. While I feel that much of the discussion on this page could have been avoided if the MfD were allowed to run its full course, I also feel that similar discussion would probably have taken place over there if not for the speedy close. I don't have strong feelings about whether or not the close was improper. Let me just point this out: if anybody stumbles upon the User:Cool Cat page, they can find the connection to User:White Cat by either clicking on "discussion" or viewing the activity logs for the Cool Cat page. Yes, it's more inconvenient than a simple redirect but not terribly so. --Kyoko 16:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn speedy - allow discussion. But more importantly, get a life and get back to writing an encyclopedia - let's not argue about how many angels dance upon the tip of a pin, OK? That being said, Cool Cat, why in the world do you have to create needless controversy with this kind of nonsense? With all due respect, this is far from the first time you appear to be climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spiderman. The Evil Spartan 18:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I am White Cat not Spider Cat. I dislike climbing german parlimentary buildings and I do not do cosplay. -- Cat chi? 22:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse deletionEven though it shouldn't have been improperly deleted, the reasons for its deletion remain: it's his userpage, and he should be able to delete it at his own will. hmwithtalk 19:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Restore redirect. His userpage is deleted. Putting a redirect there for easy navigation doesn't change that. It has so many incoming links that having a redirect is necessary. Why is he even resisting a redirect if his talk page redirect is supposedly so easy to find? - Mgm|(talk) 08:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
- It is not point. I do not want "what links here" show my non-current edits. That way I can more conveniently follow references on me. -- Cat chi? 11:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
- So it's better to inconvenience the community on the whole for something so painfully minor? -- Ned Scott 04:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Is your argument so weak that you have to respond to anything and everything I respond to? -- Cat chi? 04:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Just because I respond to you doesn't make my argument weak at all. It's called a discussion. But hey, I like how you avoided my question and tried to turn it around on me (in a way that.. doesn't make any sense at all and only makes you look stupid, but hey, whatever floats your boat). -- Ned Scott 04:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and relist at MfD These four things I know are true: (a) It is eminently clear that, in the absence of some profound new argument, MfD will counsel deletion here; (b) It is, to me, quite plain that deletion is appropriate here inasmuch as we do not proscribe editors' rendering their signatures as redlinks and inasmuch as User talk:Cool Cat, a tab for which one reaches when he clicks on User:Cool Cat, redirects to the new talk page (which redirection may not be obligatory; (c) It is well settled, the occasional recent DRV notwithstanding, that where a non-trivial amount of editors suggest that a criterion for speedy deletion does not apply to a given page, even where the number of those reasonably suggesting a criterion to apply are sufficient to suggest the presence of a consensus for the application of a criterion, inasmuch as speedy deletion commands the support of the community as policy only to the extent that it means to effect relatively uncontroversial, pro forma deletions and since it is always better to permit discussion, even that which one sees as fruitless and unnecessary (exceptions may apply where discussion is particularly disruptive, but disruptive does not equal consuming the time of certain editors who might, I think, be better served to spend their time otherwise), where the curtailing of such discussion is likely to engender more trouble (if a full MfD had been completed here and had borne out a clear consensus for deletion [or, really, since relative to a userpage a presumption is in favor of permitting a user to delete his page, OWN notwithstanding, other than a clear consensus for keeping], Ned and David, et al., would not, I imagine, feel compelled to consume the time of the communtiy with the issue; and (d) DRV (almost exclusively) about process (I suppose that process may not be of paramount import where an overturning of a particular decision at DRV should produce unnecessary disruption and ultimately a disposition identical to that which preceded DRV, but I recognize that the disruption of this page's being relisted will prove less severe than of this DRV's affirming a closure that some think to have been out-of-process); hence, overturn. Joe 06:01, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- I'd like to point out that this multiple page debate is over a "#redirect User:White Cat" content. I do not understand why people are thinking so hard about it. -- Cat chi? 06:22, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Could not the same be said for.. you..? -- Ned Scott 06:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- On a side note, dang, Joe, that's freaking art (meaning: well said!) -- Ned Scott 06:24, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse deletion, if the user wants his/her former userpage deleted, keep it deleted per CSD U1. Let's get back to work since this is an encyclopedia. He still lists his logs on his new userpage and also his old talk page is not deleted. Terence 07:24, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
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- U1 says a user can have their userpage deleted, yes, but it doesn't say anything about preventing anything from being there (such as a redirect). I can't help but think that, logically speaking, U1 was about the content of the page itself, and not about the title. -- Ned Scott 08:35, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Existing policy can be followed now, and amended for future cases. I believe that many of the people who are now insisting that policy should be followed would accept it also being amended. —SlamDiego←T 14:51, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Existing policy wasn't designed to work for these kinds of situations in the first place. The idea was that such deletion requests were almost always minor, non-controversial, and where it was removing content that the user themselves had generated and wasn't required to fulfill any particular function. The policy even says for more details to see WP:USER, where it's suggested to take such things to MFD. I do wish to expand on U1, and help clarify situations for the future, but what it says now is not in conflict with contesting U1 on MFD. -- Ned Scott 21:08, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, but presumably you would insist that you are trying to get policy (ill-designed or otherwise) followed. So long as there were no ex post facto application, would you object to amending policy so that, in future, a request such as that by the Cat could be honored without the sort of discussion for which you now argue? —SlamDiego←T 21:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- (I ask because I am somewhat sympathetic to each side here. I'm inclined to believe that the rules were and should not have been broken, and I'm inclined to believe that the rules should allow a user to get his page truly wiped.) —SlamDiego←T 21:26, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse deletion, as one of the deleting admins, I really don't understand how such a simple request got as far as DRV. This is ridiculous. Yonatan talk 16:50, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Because it was an improper closure? It doesn't matter if you feel it's a silly issue, multiple long term editors in good standing raised questions regarding the issue, including if U1 even applied or not, especially given that we don't anticipate U1 ever being controversial, is all the more reason to have allowed the MFD to continue. As one of the deleting admins, you've one of the reasons this has gone so far, and why it went from a simple MFD to a larger issue. Let me ask this, why be so insistent that there not be an MFD? Why do the people supporting close continue to insist that having an MFD is the big deal? Maybe you don't understand the situation because you don't have all the answers, nor are you the "judge" of such situations, the community is. -- Ned Scott 21:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Comment An interesting thing happened, Cyde Weys, unaware of the MFD/DRV, recreated the redirect for User:Cool Cat. An understandable miscommunication, but it does give us some interesting insight from someone who hasn't been apart of the discussion so far. I'm not trying to pull Cyde into the debate or anything, as I doubt he feels strongly about it one way or the other, but I felt it was just too interesting not to note.
- "It's not about what you desire though, it's about what is most functional and useful for the whole of Wikipedia. Your bizarre and unexplainable desire to not even have a redirect from your old username is not outweighed by the very pragmatic usefulness to everyone else, especially those unaware of your name change, of having such a redirect. --Cyde Weys 16:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)" [9].
- Full text at User talk:Cyde#User:Cool Cat. -- Ned Scott 21:54, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
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