Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 18

G._V._Loganathan (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|AfD)

Endorse nominating a verifiable article for speedy deletion. This is not a memorial09:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC) Despite strong opinions on both sides, admin called deletion discussion "a waste of time" and judged a "speedy keep". Clear violation of WP:CSK (see Cordesat's entry below). Besides lacking consensus for such a decision, at the very least we need much more time to discuss, and we must pay STRICT attention to users' opinions making sure that they are based on policy, not emotion. Pablosecca 21:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn. Give it the full hearing. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, despite being a recent victim, meets WP:BIO and is notable. More should be added about his work before death however. He is undoubtedly published extensively. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 22:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Sorta endorse the closure, in that this article really should never be deleted but redirecting it might be a good idea. Redirecting won't require an AFD though, so the AFD was pointless. Not meeting a specific notability guideline doesn't always mean delete, we should think merge/redirect first, if the person clearly exists and has media coverage. --W.marsh 22:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

“**I could live with reopening but obviously I think people who want to delete are incorrect. I should really learn to just form opinions that can easilly be expressed in a bolded word or phrase huh? --W.marsh 22:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Hardly worth an AFD now (see how easy it is to bold a phrase). Either he really was notable before the shooting, and given some time people will find sources to prove it, or he wasn't before the shooting, and given some time people will fail to find such sources. Once we know that, any AFD discussion will be significantly more likely to obtain consensus on that point, so that we can evaluate notability versus not a memorial. GRBerry 22:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure - He's published and at least marginally notable anyways.Bakaman 23:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure the result of the AfD discussion was a clear keep, and rightly so. Regardless of admittedly somewhat doubtful academic notability, he was the subject of at least two independent newspaper stories in major Indian media, and that makes him N. . We may need discussion of the N of any of the victims who do not become not subjects of independent news accounts, but the ones who are are N by the basic criteria. DGG 23:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn: Process not followed properly. Also, what would 2 or 3 more days of talking about it cost anyone? --MalcolmGin Talk / Conts 00:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn. He is probably a notable academic, but the full process should be followed per MalcolmGin . --Crunch 00:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn Simply being a murder victim is insufficient notability for an independent article. (It is sufficient for a redirect to the incident.) As for whether his academic achievements are sufficient is what AfD is there to determine. I personally think that the creation, the nomination for deletion, and the closure of the deletion debate were all done way too hastily. Caerwine Caer’s whines 00:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I'd fully accept the article being kept, though I am opposed to it; However I think the salient issue that should be discussed here is whether it was appropriate to end the discussion early not whether the article should be kept -- especially in light of the fact that Jocelyne Couture-Nowak is still being discussed. The admin in question ended the discussion decisively. Pablosecca 02:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure I think that although he might not merit an Encyclopedia Britanica entry, he should not be removed from Wikipedia, which probably has a more extensive range. At this point in time, everything about the shootings should be posted, and that includes the histories of the victims' lives. I would reccomend incorporating an abbreviated version of this article into the main Virginia Tech Massacre article after the public interest in the matter has declined. Wikipedia is a significant source of information for most people, and should be able to provide that information when it is needed. 68.88.74.37 02:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)Sarah
• Endorse Closure. Comment: I think one should not impose double standard as to keep Liviu Librescu article and delete article of the other deceased faculties. If this article is to be deleted, Librescu's article should be of the same standard, which should also be deleted. Moreover, I am sure the deceased faculties has contributed many things to the research and publications of his field, hence their Wikipedia entry will not be limited to only being one of the Vtech shooting victims. Therefore, considering both the faculties' scientific contributions as well as being one of the shooting victims, the all the deceased faculties can be considered as notable and deserve a place in Wikipedia. However, the same standard does not apply to the deceased students because they might not have contributed significantly to the scientific community, hence, their names should be in the VTech shooting article, but does not warrant an individual article for each of them. I hope my opinion can be considered. Chaerani 02:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure — this person like many other academics not yet on Wikipedia meets WP:PROF standards as a journal editor with extensive publications in his field. — Jonathan Bowen 02:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn per nom. Librescu's article both shows significant lifelong achievement, as well as action during the massacre, and so is standalone in that respect. Chris 03:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure and keep this page. He was a well respected scientist with publications and an editorship to his credit, quite apart from his unfortunate, posthumous notoriety. - Peter Ellis - Talk 04:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Strong overturn and relist per nom, the speedy keep was invalid - per WP:CSK, if there are any substantial arguments for deletion, an article cannot be speedily kept nor an AFD speedily closed. This is not a case for IAR, and process should be followed here regardless of the circumstances. --Coredesat 07:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure and keep this page. As noted before, wikipedia is wide and should have all articles. It meant a lot for those who get inspiration from him. Guruparan18 11:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure and keep this page. Has turned out to be quite notable, the incident triggered the creation of the page. --MoRsE 12:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure He is notable as a scientist with publications and editorship.Lan Di 12:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• overturn and list per nom. I don't think clear consensus has formed.SYSS Mouse 13:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure - as per Peter Ellis and Jonothan Bowen. Notable scientist with his puublications, etc., despite his death. JRG 13:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure even if it was done improperly, the result clearly will be same. Totally passes WP:BIO due to life's work Cornell Rockey 14:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure -- I agree with the decision to close the debate on deletion. I'm sorry, but this is sour grapes on the part of those who's only contribution is to request and argue for deletions. There was clear support to keep the article, and as one of the users trying to spend time actually gasp providing content to these articles it is a TOTAL and frustrating waste of my time to have to fight people who's only contribution is to question stubs. Wikipedia has plenty of stubs, why aren't there more frequent requests for deletion of stub articles? I think the answer is that once somebody has created a stub-class article that it is assumed that the author and others will slowly add to the article. Look at the history of edits of this article and my user contributions. You will see that I have been active on similar topics and have been here. Please give me time. MCalamari 14:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn Outrageous out of process closure. Flavourdan 15:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn: while he's notable per WP:BIO IMO, and I'd vote to keep, there were enough opposing arguments that the debate should have ran its course. Krimpet (talk/review) 15:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Overturn per comments below. There seems to have been an overall kneejerk "delete them all!" reaction, which I don't regard as being in good faith. to any article related to anything having to do with the Virginia Tech massacre save the main article itself, regardless of the individual notability of the topic or individual covered in the prodded articles. It is clear from this article as it stands now that this man was notable per WP:BIO prior to his death, though granted the article could still stand expansion & improvement), & another AfD debate is simply a waste of time. The prodders have already wasted enough of our time. --Yksin 17:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Vote change -- per Core's comment below, I reviewed the procedures for Speedy Keep and must agree that no, the admin did not follow procedure, & should have seen the process out properly. All the same, I stand by everything else I said above, & hope we don't have to go through another AfD debate... but if we do, we do. --Yksin 19:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Please keep in mind that this is not an AFD. The notability of the subject is not the issue here - the issue is whether process was properly followed. I urge the closing admin to take that into consideration when closing this DRV. --Coredesat 17:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• Nope. Process was not followed. Why? There are sublime number of sources available on the subject of the article. This was not a borderline case. — Nearly Headless Nick ^{C} 11:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

"Sublime" sources? Anyway, your decision to end the AfD discussion was not based on policy taking into account the controlling rule of WP:CSK. You abused your privileges as an administrator. Pablosecca 00:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The article is probably one of the most visited articles on Wikipedia, given the recent times. It was only sensible to close the AfD speedily, specially when good quality and reliable sources were available on the subject. Imagine what it looks like to the outside world when they try and visit one of the most visited pages on Wikipedia and see notices of deletion and deletion review for five continuous days. I don't have any habit of closing AfDs prematurely, so please don't give me that abused your privileges baloney. — Nearly Headless Nick ^{C} 12:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn I was extremely surprised that this was closed so quickly, especially after there was still such strong debate going on back and forth. I was also going to echo Coredesat's comments, that this is a discussion about the process of the speedy discussion closure, not whether the article should actually be deleted or not.Tejastheory 19:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn Despite views on the actually article, policy does dictate that speedy delete should not happen when there is an equally opposed argument to the keeping of the article. Allow it another chance through the deletion process so that it can be decided properlly. --Jimmi Hugh 00:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist. This DRV is a review of the AfD, which was speedy kept. How on earth did the decision fall under WP:CSK? The answer is it didn't. There was an obvious improper closure of the AfD, and it should be overturned and relisted for five days. Rockstar (^T/_C) 01:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse status quo without prejudice for two weeks - this series of articles is high visibility. Having AFD, TFD, DRV, Merge, and other templates on them is not a spectacular thing. --BigDT (416) 02:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Good point, in all fairness to wikipedia we should not let such arguments blemish its face to the unediting pubic. I say we contact a clear headed admin immediately and have him delete all the unneeded articles --Jimmi Hugh 02:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Good grief ... or just leave it like it is for a few weeks and confine all xFD templates to talk pages. Talk:Virginia Tech massacre is active enough that thousands of people will see any deletion notice - there is no need to clutter up encyclopedic space. This topic is different from most of our experience here. As a general rule, if something is high-visibility, we don't usually consider deleting it. But in this case, we are so we should keep those templates out of the article. --BigDT (416) 02:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Relist in two weeks or overturn outright Loganathan was prior to this of borderline notability, possibly meeting WP:PROF and full AfD will likely result in this article being kept. However, WP:MEMORIAL is highly relevant, and in general victims of tragedies are not notable for that alone. Furthermore, the standard coverage of victims due to their being victims is not generally considered sufficient sign of notability (see for example many precedents of articles about people killed in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict). In any event, the community needs to determine whether we wish to keep these as separate articles. BigDT also makes a good suggestion in that it is likely that a little while from now when we have more perspective and a bit less emotion involved things may turn out differently. However, in the meantime closing this AfD was grossly out of process, unhelpful, and if it stands will create a very problematic precedent which will drastically encourage problems of systemic bias. JoshuaZ 02:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment by closing administrator: I strongly recommend that WP:MEMORIAL is reviewed. Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered. I can assure everyone that the deceased subject of the article is neither an acquaintance of mine nor a relative. :) The subject, whether he received fame on his death, is not relevant for the encyclopedia, what is relevant, however, is the fact that he has received enormous coverage through various media outlets, the links to which are provided on the article itself. I believe that I applied IAR here, and to the right effect. The exercise was clearly pointless. Accusations of systematic bias sound like straw man arguments. — Nearly Headless Nick ^{C} 11:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I don't think that anyone is asserting that WP:MEMORIAL necessarily makes this article unacceptable. However, in general being a tragic victim is not enough to have an article. As I pointed out above, every single victim of a suicide bombing in Israel gets extensive coverage in Israeli newspapers, and you have corresponding levels of coverage of many Palestinians in the Arab press. I think everyone here agrees that such people don't merit articles. Therefore, notability should be justified at least to a large extent by the subject's academic work. It is not obvious at this time that this is feasible. As to the matter of a "strawman" argument- I'm a bit confused by what you mean by that. As strawman argument means making a caricature of an argument and arguing against that rather than the actual argument. I don't see how the comment about systemic bias fit into that category. Do you mean that you find it to be a weak or unpersuasive argument? JoshuaZ 16:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Brrr, need to read that article often. Red herrings and strawmans give me a headache. :P I would like to see some precedents, please. Did the Israeli victims get the same kind of coverage that Loganathan's death triggered throughout the world? BTW, his story has appeared in CNN, BBC, Rediff.com, The Times of India and the Indian Express. — Nearly Headless Nick ^{C} 12:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse closure and Keep this page. This guy is now an important person. Effer 02:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment No. Dying doesn't in general make you notable. Dying in a tragedy doesn't make you notable. This is long standing precedent, and it would be an extreme and unhealthy form of systemic bias to make an exception simply because the associated event happened to be large and occur in the country that many editors reside. JoshuaZ 02:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Actually there is no 'correct' opinion here, despite how this is argued. In some cases dying in a tragedy does make one more notable. The example that has been brought up before are the Shuttle Astronauts (sadly you can pick your shuttle). Granted, most of them would have had their own articles being astronauts, the scale of this event clearly has generated an interest in hearing about the people whom were most effected by this event. Few people are arguing that the holocaust survivor (I call him that, as I feel that is a factor in his popularity) does not merit an article, but there is really no difference between the next tier which includes Loganathan and Granata. I believe Granata's article is not being subjected to this same degree of scrutiny because his current article had more user contributions at the time that a few users called for speedy deletes on all the VTM stubs. While this "debate" is about a procedure, people are forgetting that the speedy delete debate on Loganathan was ~36 to keep compared to ~14 delete on Loganathan at a time where Granata's discussion was much more in favour of keep. I strongly believe that had Loganathan's family life been better detailed that the vote would be even more lopsided towards keeping. The admin's decision seemed to suggest this. MCalamari 06:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Relist in two weeks. This guy isn't notable, but an AFD right now would simply be overrun by people who are ignorant of wikipedia policy and are trying to eulogize him. Wikipedia is not a memorial, and in two weeks we can reopen the AFD and probably get rid of the article once everyone has gone. Titanium Dragon 02:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Irrelevant argument. The person is clearly notable as per WP:BIO. Is there anyone who can deny this? The subject's life is also being detailed in various obituaries released throughout the world, and especially, the Indian media. Whether any subject becomes notable on birth or death is no concern of Wikipedia, as long as there are multiple, non-trivial and independent sources available on the subject. — Nearly Headless Nick ^{C} 11:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I can deny that he is notable. If you read WP:BIO, you find the sentence "Trivial, or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not sufficient to establish notability." While the coverage for Loganathan may not have been trivial, it is strictly incidental. The Oxford English Dictionary defines incidental as " 1. a. Occurring or liable to occur in fortuitous or subordinate conjunction with something else of which it forms no essential part; casual." This individual's notability is subordinate to the narrative of the tragedy at VTech. OED, QED. Pablosecca

• I think you have refuted your own argument by citing the definition of "incidental". The death of the subject, at the V. Tech. is in no way a non-essential part of the tragedy, or something you can term as casual. There is no denying the fact that Loganathan became a very well-known figure after the shootings – the sources speak of more than his death in the article pages dedicated to him over newsprint and other media. The biography article is "a credible independent biography"; the subject has "a wide name recognition", has "multiple features in credible news media".
• Also, you have conveniently overlooked his contributions as an academician, which are available on Google Scholar – [1]. Hence fulfilling the requirements for notability as per WP:PROF.
• By your interpretation, perhaps, you would be also inclined to say that the perpetrator of this crime, Cho Seung Hui, is not a notable subject, per se; just because the coverage on him and his conduct is strictly incidental to the fact that he was a mass murderer at the Virginia Tech. — Nearly Headless Nick ^{C} 12:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn - While I think this person is "notable" outside the crime, this should not have been speedy kept. --Oakshade 05:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn. Not a clear speedy keep, and many similar VT victims' articles have already been deleted. -THF 11:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse nominating a verifiable article for deletion is just......--Konstable 11:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse Closure - article is perfectly verifiable and as such, has to remain undeleted. There's nothing to state in policy that the circumstances in which someone dies dictates how we handle any article created about them. -- Nick ^t 11:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, SISLEY 17:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• This isn't a vote or a discussion for deletion. This is a review of the original deletion. Rockstar (^T/_C) 18:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn - Doesn't meet Wikipedia:Speedy keep. Acegikmo1 19:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy overturn and relist for four more days - The AfD as closed early does not meet Wikipedia:Speedy keep. No substantial arguments have been provided in this DRV to establish that the AfD meet the Wikipedia:Speedy keep requirements. The speedy keep closer admits that the close did not meet Wikipedia:Speedy keep[2]. Failure to relist speedily will disrupt the validity of the ongoing AfD. -- Jreferee 20:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse without prejudice to a proper discussion a week or month when (sad to say) everyone but his friends and family will have forgotten him entirely. Clearly impossible to have an impartial discussion about him at this point. —Cryptic 20:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure and KEEP article is informative and is on a notable prof. --Grubb 21:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure and KEEP article is informative and is on a notable prof -- RaveenS 23:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Err... I'm a bit confused about those last two votes... Rockstar (^T/_C) 23:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm beginning to wonder if votes were canvassed here, actually. --Coredesat 00:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
      • Am I gullible to suspect that Grubb and RaveenS are the same person? I am ignorant as to how to check. Pablosecca 00:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC) Looks like that's not the only thing I'm ignorant of. ;) Pablosecca 04:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
        • Hi Pablosecca. Since RaveenS and Grubb both are long term contributors, RaveenS is a significant contributor with over 5,000 edits, and the only page both RaveenS and Grubb have ever contributed to is this page, you might want to strike your 00:44, 21 April 2007 post. -- Jreferee 02:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
          • • Sorry to have caused the confusion by voting the same way as some body elese but bottom line, those who know me, know all my massacre series articles that I have created and all categories that I created for massacres by country, so naturally I will gravitate towards a major massacre of this century in North America. To insinuate that I was canvanced to come here is also totally wrong and should be striken off. Thanks RaveenS 23:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure Perfectly verifiable. Qjuad 00:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 03:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure and keep. As the article states, Loganathan has published at least 62 research papers, almost all in peer-reviewed journals. He is hardly a minor academic, so I can't see why he isn't notable enough to warrant an article. Further, his colleague Kevin Granata's article was kept. --Buyoof 05:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment well given that THAT article was closed after only 7 hours of discussion (not even a full 24-hour cycle for people to log online!), I don't think that the "keep" decision there was very valid either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tejastheory (talk • contribs) 06:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC).
• Comment I think those are key points, and I'd like to suggest that the merit of this article and also the speedy deletion decision be consistent with that for the Granata article. There are a number of similarity in the articles between the two, though I find it troubling that people have tagged this article for deletion. MCalamari 21:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. I note that the article now mentions that he won the American Society of Civil Engineers' (ASCE) annual Wesley W. Horner award in 1996 for his research. I quote from the ASCE's website: "The award is made to the author(s) of the paper that makes the most valuable contribution to the environmental engineering profession" [3]. I think we should all take a step back from this debate and look at G.V. Loganathan as an academic - IMHO, I think all the given evidence meets Wikipedia's notability criteria. I was a little uncomfortable with the speedy closure of the original deletion discussion (which I'm sure would have ended up as a 'keep' anyway), but I don't think there's any point having this discussion now... --Buyoof 13:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

• Leave it alone for a few weeks and relist then, if it's still called for. Some people do become notable due to being a crime victim, we certainly have articles on Elizabeth Smart and Amadou Diallo, and I don't think anyone would seriously consider deleting those. Let's let the issue settle a bit, and in a few weeks we can generate a lot more light with a lot less heat. Right now, it's too up in the air. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 12:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure and keep this page per Guruparan18 --Rita Moritan 13:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn It is for the community to decide whether the debate is a waste of time, not for one person who jumps in to close a debate prematurely. Brandon97 20:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I was under the impression that decisions for deletion were not based on a democratic vote, but rather on the quality of the arguments provided. However, had the debate been allowed to continue, the 2:1 margin against the speedy deletion would likely have continued. Essentially there were ~36 people who wanted the stub-class article to survive just like countless thousands of other stub-class articles, which is contrasted by the ~14 who wanted the stub deleted (some of these people even have admitted that the article in question passed WP:PROF). MCalamari 20:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
    • AfDs are decided on consensus, unless the consensus is wrong (like speedy keeping an article when it does not fit under the CSK). DRVs, on the other hand, are often decided using a majority. Rockstar (^T/_C) 21:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment Do you really think there was going to be any consensus reached to delete the article when over 2/3 of those replying were opposed to a speedy deletion of a stub article? Is not the point of a speedy deletion process to see if there is overwhelming support one way or another in a short timeframe? I'd call a supermajority of opinions reason enough to not do a speedy delete. MCalamari 21:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
        • I agree, the article doesn't fit the criteria of CSD, but the early closing of the AfD did not fit the criteria of the CSK. The DRV is a review of the AfD, which ended in "speedy keep," obviously a mistake by the closing admin. Rockstar (^T/_C) 22:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn - I voted to keep the article, but it doesn't seem to merit a speedy keep. --Barista | a/k/a マイケル | T/C 03:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse Closure and Overturn - Let me clarify. I fully agree that this article should never have been nominated, under WP:PROF, BUT I disagree with the admin in question's judgment in speedy closing the AFD of a controversial article. It should have been given more thought and allowed to run it's course. Also, from the comments on the page, it should have been closed under No Consensus, not Keep or Speedy Keep... Unless we're going to create Speedy We Can't Decide. -- Phoeba Wright^OBJECTION! 04:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
• Leave it alone for a few weeks, and relist per Seraphimblade. Textbook case of recentism - emotions are raw right now, let's let the dust settle a little. – Riana ^ऋ 12:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn; deserves full hearing, as is taking place with pages on other VT victims --Mhking 15:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
• as above, Endorse closure and KEEP: article is informative and is on a notable prof. --Vince ^|Talk| 19:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse Closure It's too early to determine if the articles should be deleted just yet, especially given the emotional resonance still in play. A more neutral evaluation of their worth can be made in a few months, once the articles have had a chance to be fully fleshed out. GarryKosmos 21:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse Closure And I don't understand when people complain ONLY for process reasons. As a result of our own obsessions with bureaucracy, this highly visible article is decorated with a large ugly box... Please note that WP:PROCESS is merely an essay, while WP:IAR is official policy! If you have any real non-internal non-bureucratic non-masturbational objections as to why this admins action has harmed Wikipedia, then please present them. Thank you! --Merzul 01:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

List of male performers in gay porn films (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|AfD)

The decision by the administrator was not based on the consensus of the review. The result of the discussion was overwhelmingly to keep. The reason given by the administrator—that the list was redundant to the category—was completely discredited in the comments; a list is not the same thing as a category; a category can't be annotated, a category can't list all the pseudonyms for the performers, a category cannot provide a list of articles that need to be written. The closing administrator of the previous Afd specifically spoke to not relying on a category. A question of linkspam has arisen because the consensus is that each name on the list has to be individually sourced. The links are to retail websites that list the videos in which the performers have appeared and offer some of them for sale (although the most frequently used site, tlavideo, continues to list :videos for a performer which are no longer available). The Adult Film Database and Internet Adult Film Database are both woefully lacking in listings regarding gay porn; the afdb also has links to retail websites in their videographies (see examples at the afdb). The retail sites provide unquestionably reliable sources; such sources are difficult to come by. Not approving of the available reliable sources is no reason to delete an entire article. Work with the editors of the article to find other acceptable reliable sources or some other solution. Links to listings at the IMDb may be used in some cases, although not every notable performer is listed there or their listing has such a brief list of films that it does nothing to establish any notability. —Chidom ^talk  20:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Yeesh. Overturn, but a strong suggestion to clean up - if the performer doesn't have a page here, or is unlikely to have a page here, they probably shouldn't be listed on the page, because I have a feeling that external jumps in the list factored into the decision. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn. Much as I agree with the closing admin that it is redunant to the category, and much as I tend to applaud admins for going out on a limb and sometimes making the less than obvious choice in closing, in this case it goes against some pretty strong consensus to keep. I don't particularly like the reasoning given but it's hard to argue against that much opinion. Arkyan • ^(talk) 21:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn: But I fully agree with recommendations for cleanup. Wikipeople tend to be a bit on edge about external links as they can be strongly interpreted as advertising. --MalcolmGin Talk / Conts 00:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn I too might have said to delete, but that was not the consensus.DGG 00:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn Of course, it should be overturned. Most people said 'keep' so unless wiki is a dictatorship we should keep. Or have I misunderstood something along the line. The page has been hijacked by so many people each with their own agenda but it *was* a reasonable place to see who had articles about them without having to do an individual search on each. There's a lot of work to be done before it would meet my ideal 'user-friendly' page but a lot of work HAS been done before these 'deleters' had their say. Why didn't they call for deletion before someone had spent so much time on the page? If people really have so little to do that they call for the deletion of a page that does provide a service (and I disagree with the tlavideo links) then they should get a life; their life is even sadder than mine.

Oops, I'm so unused to this that I forgot to add my tildes to the above Cannonmc 13:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn. I think there may just about have been a consensus to get rid of the link farm, but I don't think there was any consensus to delete the article. I agree with Badlydrawnjeff that only notable pornstars (i.e. those that meet WP:PORNBIO and therefore have or should have articles) should be included in the list if it is to be brought in line with Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia is not a directory and I think this article in its present form crosses that line. On the other hand a list of notable pornstars would be useful, especially if it is sorted in some useful manner and contains brief information about each entry to guide the user as to which article they wish to read. WjBscribe 14:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure AfD discussions are not ballots. The arguments for deletion were stronger than arguments to keep. Epbr123 18:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn Consensus was overwhelmingly for Keep, and made the better argument. Dekkappai 19:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure - Here we are again... the majority of performers in the deleted list were not notable in any way. Also, only a tiny minority had dedicated Wikipedia article - so the list was mostly useless, except for the sole purpose of going to the linked tlavideo website and buying the videos (and being a catalog for the commercial website is not a purpose of Wikipedia). Futurix 20:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure The arguments for deletion were more substantial and better based on Wikipedia policies and guidelines.Edison 21:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn Although the closer made good points, the AfD debate was interpreted incorrectly by the closer. -- Jreferee 22:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn But this must have some sort of organization to avoid being a directory. Only notable gay pornographic stars should be included, with a brief summary describing their notability. If it was recreated, external links should have to be discussed on the talk page first, to get consensus. Don't know if you'll agree with me or not on this, but it may be worth a try. As it is, the consensus now currently seems to be to overturn, with only two people endorsing the closure so far. --SunStar Net ^talk 10:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Comment by closing administrator: Agree to undeletion if only notable subjects are listed on the page, otherwise it is only valuable as a libel shack. There is a reason why non-notable people should not be on an encyclopedia. Defamation laws differ pretty much when the subject is a non-notable entity. — Nearly Headless Nick ^{C} 11:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Comment There is no issue of defamation when each name is sourced to the credits of videos, as was the consensus on the talk page, and the impetus for the decision. As for notability, the WP:PORNBIO guideline is disputed; the men with robust filmographies can reasonably be expected to have articles here one day, which is what the guideline on lists calls for.

I will work to replace the links to the video stores, but will continue to refer to those sites as references in the cases where only very brief videographies are available on other sites that would fail to show that the performer has been more than a one-film wonder. I will add a reference in either the "Notes" or "References" section such as "Search retail sites for a list of additional films"; those sites will be listed in External links. Any other conditions for the article's restoration are unreasonable and biased in violation of neutral point of view policy, which overrides any guidelines.

I have bent over backwards to accommodate the ever-increasing demands of editors who have suddenly decided that a list that has survived two previous deletion nominations is so flawed as to be worthy of deletion. The list is greatly improved both in content and sourcing since the past nominations and is still under construction to meet the currently-communicated requirements. Please let the dust settle before adding any other conditions to its content.

To my mind, this is an up or down vote—either the list is undeleted as it was, or not. Continuing to add conditions without obtaining consensus is unfair and unworkable; I am one of the very few editors working on the list and cannot be expected to meet every single requirement put forth by other individual editors.

If anyone cannot support having the list restored as it was with the understanding that the commercial links will be removed and that no further changes will be made to how the list was compiled, then I strongly urge you to change your recommendation to Delete; that will be the consensus and this will be over.

Continuing to have one discussion after another to impose additional restrictions on the list that contradict Wikipedia policy is unacceptable. It's either "yay" or "nay", folks.—Chidom ^talk  18:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Per references for list items, lists should always include unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources, especially in difficult or contentious topics. -- Jreferee 19:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. If the list is undeleted and done properly (only actors with articles) it's redundant to the category. If it continues on the way it was, it's a BLP nightmare in the making. Either we need to quit saying "AfD is not a vote", or we need to quit raising hell every time someone, with a good rationale, doesn't treat it as one. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 12:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Why has it suddenly become only *notable* people that can be included? Many good performers have appeared in gay porn without being 'notable'and many 'notable' people could be named (Jim Bentley?)who haven't appeared here. And why is it only 'gay porn' that has to go through these hoops? Type in 'list of porn stars' in the wiki search box and you get lists of transexual, hispanic, big-busted, you name it porn stars and not one of them has the 'sources'/restrictions demanded by people wanting to delete the gay list.

Chidom seems to have done his best, often against his better judgement, to accommodate people who had niggling objections but every time he does that for one, someone (or maybe the same ones) raises yet further niggling objections.

Now could we get back to a decent list that encouraged us to improve articles we know are there or write articles we can see are needed. Those demanding changes or deletion are rather hypocritical as they are ignoring other wiki articles/pages which don't match the criteria they are demanding for this page.

And why am I spending (or did Chidom spend) so much time on this page when people don't want it because it is about a gay subject - or so it seems to me.

BTW, if someone wants a reliable source, I'll tell you who I've seen in a video/film/dvd.

Cannonmc 13:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Seraphimblade's comment is incorrect:: It is not a BLP nightmare. Each name has been sourced to a public videography that shows that they were in gay porn films. An issue has arisen about the use of videographies from retail sites offering those videos for sale. Other references will be found; no name will appear on the list without being sourced beyond doubt that the name is that of a performer in gay porn films.

The list serves all three of the purpose of lists as defined in the Purpose of lists section of Wikipedia:Lists:

"Information: The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list. Examples would include lists organized chronologically, grouped by theme, or annotated lists."

The list is grouped by theme. The precise definition of the group/"theme" for the list was the topic of great debate on the article's talk page. There were dissenting voices to the practice of limiting the list to males and exclusing females and transgendered performers.

The primary purpose of the list is to provide a cross-reference to performer's pseudonyms. The list is annotated with cross-referenced to each name; every pseudonym was sourced and it was specifically stated that no pseudonym could be listed without giving a source for the name as well. I actually removed a name from the list that is the name used as the title of one of the articles; I couldn't find a reliable source for the name—either through my own searches nor as a reference in the article itself.

The style used by one of the retail websites stated: "Joe Foo is also listed under the following name(s):" and lists those name(s) with videographies for them. At times, the Internet Movie Database (IMDb), Internet Adult Film Database (IAFD), and Adult Film Database (AFDB) can be used as sources for that information as well (although the two adult databases are lacking in listings related to gay porn. The IAFD has stated that it is trying to expand its listings related to gay porn; they have installed a "switch" to exclude the gay porn titles from search results. The AFDB includes links to retail sites that offer the movies listed for sale—the very issue that has caused so much consternation here.

Perhaps the most infamous example of a pseudonym in pornography is the List of male performers in gay porn films listing for Matt Ramsey, who appeared in gay porn using the names "Matt Ramsey" and "Matt Ramsay" and is much better known as Peter North, a profligate performer in straight porn. Both Peter North at the Internet Movie Database and Peter North at the Internet Adult Film Database document this; at one time, North denied it but has ceased to do so.

Another example is that of a perfomer who has performed under the names Jan Vaboril, Jan Voboril, Kuba, Rob Masters, Robbie Masters, Adam Kubick, Adam Kubrik, Jan Vorbo, and Julian Sniper, as Adam Kubrick at the Internet Adult Film Database documents. The Adam Kubick at the Internet Movie Database listing only notes "Alternate names: Robbie Masters". That is borne out by utilizing searches of retail websites; there is a reference "Adam Kubick is also listed under the following name(s): Robbie Masters; where "Robbie Masters" is linked to another videography. In this instance; Wikipedia becomes an important source of information to someone trying to find any other films in which Jan Vorbo appears; if they are unfamiliar with the IAFD, they're not likely to find the information. The informaton should be available in Wikipedia regardless of personal feelings about its inclusion here: Wikipedia is not censored

A reader seeing one of these performers in a film and wanting more information can come here and find the additional names under which that performer has worked.

"Navigation: Lists can be used as a table of contents, or if the user is browsing without a specific research goal in mind, they would likely use the See also lists. If the user has a specific research goal in mind, and there is only one or two words that are used to describe the research topic, and they know exactly how to spell the word, they would probably use the search engine box. If the user has some general idea of what they are looking for but does not know the specific terminology, they would tend to use the lists of related topics (also called list of links to related articles)."

The list does serve as a table of contents of the articles that have been written and provides links to related articles. As has been stated by the previous closing administrator, reducing this to a category makes things worse, not better. There is no way to source a category listing nor provide the cross-references to pseudonyms.

"Development: Some lists are useful for Wikipedia development purposes. The lists of related topics give an indication of the state of the 'pedia, the articles that have been written, and the articles that have yet to be written. However, as Wikipedia is optimized for readers over editors, any lists which exist primarily for development or maintenance purposes (such as a list of red link articles needed) should be in project or user space not the main space."

The primary purpose of the list is not for development or maintenace purposes, but to provide cross-references. The list belongs in the main space. The issue of redlinks has been addressed and consensus reached not to link names (thus creating red links) until an article has been written about the performer whose name is on the list. For examples of why this is so, see Randy White,Dred Scott, and Brandon Lee, for example. All of these are porn performers who now have articles; when that wasn't the case, people searching for the football player, basketball player, politician, slave, martial arts actor, or band member may have wound up with the list as one of the search results—not what they were seeking. People who were upset by this were deleting the performer's name from the list instead of unlinking it or adding the "(porn star)" descriptor to disambiguate it.

The article serves as a list of articles that need to be written. While that is a function used primarily for editors, there is still value in the unlinked names for a reader trying to verify if, in fact, there really is a porn performer named "Adam West". (There is(Adam West at the IAFD), but he is not the Adam West of the Batman television series.)

As for notability, the men have robust videographies which I feel is enough of a basis for their inclusion on the list; if additional information isn't found to support their qualification for an article, their name will be removed. Many of the names are performers who have also received awards or otherwise met the disputed Wikipedia:Notability (pornographic actors) guideline. Please remember too that when there is a difference of years of time, notability is evaluated based on the time period in which the person was notable, not the present day.

The quantity of research that some are requesting here is tantamount to writing an article about the performer first and then including them on the list. That is not a requirement of lists.

The list already goes beyond what is required of other lists because it was determined through consensus that each name had to be sourced to show that they were a performer in gay porn films. If other lists are deficient in this area that may not be grounds for not having the requirement here; however, the sheer volume of "requirements" for which there is no consensus is overhwelming and completely unfair—the article is in line with the existing requirements.

Continuing to insist on a different standard here is based solely on the perception that the names on the list are of non-notable individuals—which initial research suggests that they may be—and that inclusion opens the door to charges of defamation and libel. The defamation/libel argument has been made in this review twice; I have answered both times, not to mention the information available elsewhere about the names being sourced. The number of conditions here is indicative of bias; they have moved far beyond any concerns about defamation or libel.—Chidom ^talk  16:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Just some comments in order of the points in Chidom's message:

• grouped by theme - one can argue that this bit means groups in the list, not the entire list
• pseudonyms - should be listed for the notable performers in their dedicated articles
• AFDB including links to retail website - AFDB is not an example for Wikipedia
• the majority of the performers in the closed article did not have dedicated article - so the article could not act as navigation aid
• suggestion that the article should act as a guide for future article writers is even worse - Wikipedia is not a place for articles about every single porn actor (WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE), it deals with notable subjects (and just the fact of participation in a porn flick is not notable)
• defamation/libel argument is not the only one, notability is much more important

Futurix 00:27, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn deletion. Most of the issues raised by the closing admin can be remediened easily. The list is not redundant with the category because of the numerous pseudonyms used. Furthermore, it'd be strange to delete this article while retaining List of big-bust models and performers. However those are not the types of issues that a closing admin should decide. The closing statement reads more like a !vote than an evaluation of the discussion. -Will Beback · † · 00:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn as there was pretty clear consensus to keep, and closing admins are not the right people to determine which argument takes the day. (this similarly smacks of unpleasant authoritarianism.) Fireplace 00:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

  Funny but what you call "unpleasant authoritarianism", I call "a willingness to compromise"... WjBscribe 04:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Response to Futurix:

• I concede that an interpretation of the guideline could be that lists would be grouped by theme within the list; however, one of the other uses given is as a list of links to related articles. Surely you can concede that the articles are related?
• If the pseudonyms are only listed in articles, the article is unavailable to someone who doesn't know the performer by the name that is used for the article title.

As to notability, I am not suggesting and have never suggested that every performer in gay porn appear on this list. The list could have been culled for notability long ago if not for the conditions placed on its very survival. I was in the process of doing that when wholesale deletions were made to the list and I was required to go find sources for individual names.

Rest assured that, as is the practice now, as names are found to be non-notable, they are removed from the list. Were the article available, you would see that there are many invisible comments documenting the validity of a performer's name as having appeared in gay porn, but noting that they are not notable enough to warrant an article in Wikipedia and therefore have been removed from the list.

The use of invisible comments in this instance is to document which names have been found to fail notability requirements and prevent having to delete the same listings over and over. Again, sources are included in the invisible comments to verify that the person has performed in a gay porn film. If a name cannot be sourced to verify that it is that of a performer in gay porn, the name is deleted from the list and no comment is recorded—either in the article, on the talk page, or in the edit summary.

• The AFDB is recognized as a source of information in its field and has editorial oversight. I'm not sure what your statement about it not being an example is supposed to mean; it is an acceptable source of information according to Wikipedia guidelines. I was merely pointing out that it offers links to items for purchase. Like many other non-commercial websites, the AFDB has to rely on advertising by retailers for funding. As do newspapers and magazines; that doesn't invalidate them as sources. While objections to purely commercial sites may be valid, the intent was to use them as vehicles of information, not as shopping portals. Your opinion to the contrary is unsupportable in the face of the evidence given.
• The list does act as a navigation aid; check out the number of hits it gets and tell me differently. (Oh, wait—that's not available, either.) As the list will be culled to include only those who are notable enough to have articles here, it is to be devoutly wished that eventually the majority of names will be linked to their own articles. That's never going to happen if constant bickering about the list and defending its existence consume all my time. The list's detractors have effectively made being involved with the list—even if only to ask questions about articles that need to be written, etc.—distasteful to those who would otherwise participate in writing the articles. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot insist that articles be written and then use every tactic you can think of to waste editors' time and ensure that they never are.
• I addressed the comment about notability above, along with the comment about this trying to be an indiscriminate list. Additionally, the guidelines state that names can be listed for which there is a reasonable expectation that an article will be written; obviously, your definition of reasonable expectation and mine differ.
• I feel that the issue of notability has been sufficiently addressed and is yet another tactic being used to delete the article. Find me a policy that says that every name on a list has to be shown to be notable in order to be on the list and we'll talk. Until then—despite our diagreement over its definition—the guideline of "reasonable expectation" will have to do. If you assume good faith on the part of all the editors who added the names to the list, surely that shouldn't be much of a problem.

Just FYI, I began work on a database cross-referencing every winner of every major award in gay porn some months ago. The database would be a valuable aid in determining notability (which is why I was compiling it). I haven't been able to complete work on it due to the time I've spent trying to satisfy the request for individual sources and then defend the article's existence in an AfD, and am now working to overturn a bad decision that obviously went against consensus. Again, you can't complain about the list's composition when no time is allowed to work on it. I can't spend 24/7 on Wikipedia; the time I've alloted to this project has been completely wasted for more than two months now.

I was given the task of providing a reference for every name on the list to show that it was, indeed, the name of a performer in gay porn. I wasn't allowed to complete that task before the article was nominated for deletion. Despite an overwhelming consensus for "Keep", I'm now arguing about overturning an administrator's decision to delete the article—more wasted time.

One thing at a time, folks. Let me finish verifying that every name on the list is a performer in gay porn and then let me move on to a deeper investigation of the notability of each name. I didn't add them all; it would be totally unfair to the other editros—and in direct contravention of assume good faith—to remove the names they added without more research. In the meantime, the names were on the list, it's been decided that they need to be sourced. That is the most important issue. That will have to be re-started with links to more palatable reliable sources. That objection only undoes about 100 hours of work or so.

Enough. If you think I don't have more pressing concerns, check out my user and talk pages, which I finally got around to updating today. I couldn't have cared less about this article this past week but I was determined that it wouldn't go without the best effort I could make. I think I've done that; I'll shut up before I violate the Wikipedia:Civility policy.

Talk amongst yourselves; someone please drop me an e-mail when this discussion is closed and let me know what the outcome was. Thanks.

Have good days.—Chidom ^talk  03:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

AVADirect (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|AfD)

now have two articles Bundar 19:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC) Was told my article would be undeleted if I had two sources about the company I want to write about.

The normal standard is non-trivial coverage in multiple independant reliable sources. You can post the links to your sources here for review purposes. --pgk 19:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Here are the sources he provided to me (as I was the one who originally deleted the article). I think they qualify as multiple, non-trivial coverage in multiple independent reliable sources:

HardOCP

http://consumer.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTIzMCwxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI=

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTMwMCwyLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

CNet

http://www.cnet.com/AVADirect_Core_2_Duo_SLI/4505-3118_7-32411968.html?tag=prod.txt.1

I have no opinion in the matter, though I do think notability has now been shown via the links above. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Personally not convinced by the sources, they aren't about the company, but about the products. The coverage of the company is pretty sparse and some of it is stating what the company they have told them (i.e. isn't independent and fact checked). --pgk 19:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I also note it has been deleted twice in about the last month as either A7 or G12. Given both versions contained sections like " Payment Methods - AVADirect accepts VISA, MASTER CARD, AMEX and DISCOVER CARD. They also accept company check or money order. They have on occasion accepted wire transfer and PAYPAL.". There maynot be much salvageable from the deleted content, a fresh article maybe better. The particular phrase "They have on occasion accepted wire transfe" suggests a connection to the company so there maybe a WP:COI issue here also--pgk 19:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• • Please let me know what I need to change in order for this to work, new to all this so I apologize if Im driving you guys nuts. --Bundar
• Comment: Clearly this user needs some advice. Perhaps that's the way we could find reasonable closure here? --MalcolmGin Talk / Conts 00:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Ross Jordan (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|AfD)

A big name in british wrestling was unjustly deleted via prod (i myself have been away for a few weeks, but if i had been avaliable i would have removed the prod myself). The wrestler concerned has worked in/continues to work with the biggest promotions within the UK, holding some major lightwieght titles in excess of a year. The article itself had over 20 pages linking to it and Jordan has a high number of google hits Paulley 18:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment this is the kind of thing you should be able to deal with just be asking the deleting admin and they should be happy to undelete it for you. If you give me a few seconds I'll do it. --pgk 18:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Comedy films by actor (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|CfD)

Overturn and delete all - The CFD closed with a proper delete for the parent category and for "Adam Sandler films" and a rename of the remaining categories to add the words "(film series)" to follow the names of the actors. Here are the problems with this solution. First, these are not film "series" as the term is used on Wikipedia. They do not in most cases follow the same characters from one film to the next, they do not in most cases serve as sequels, they do not carry forward stories or situations from one film to the next. The solution came about as the result of a compromise which at least in part appers to be premised on the notion that the films in question constitute "genres" or "subgenres" on their own. This notion does not appear to be grounded in independent scholarship and thus constitutes impermissible original research. Other arguments in favor of keeping/renaming the category included comparisons of the merits of these categories to other categories, which is not persuasive. The result of the CFD is nothing more than WP:ILIKEIT being applied to the categories and the rename closure is a mistake. Otto4711 18:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment (Neutral to this discussion, merely explaining my closure) - This closure (I thought) was fairly straight-forward. Mike Selinker came up with a compromise that appeared to be acceptable to all to add the word "series" to the category names. As I mentioned to User:Otto4711 on his talk page, The only way I changed that compromise was to change "X series films" to "X (film series)", in the hopes of sparing us a renom, per Wikipedia:Disambiguation and Category:Film series, as I mentioned in the closing statement. - jc37 18:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Just to clarify, I don't object to the format of the result. I find "X series films" and "X (film series)" equally incorrect. It is the result itself, rename (to anything) instead of delete that I object to. The categories should not be kept in any form under any name. Otto4711 19:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• The statement that this is WP:ILIKEIT is pretty far from the mark, Otto. I don't care about any of the categories per se. The compromise I suggested was that we are going to have some film series (Category:Batman films, for example) that are defined by characters. And in these cases, they are defined by the characters just as well, even if the character names change, similar to Category:Living Dead films. The Marx Brothers films follow patterns where, for example, Harpo doesn't speak and Groucho wiggles his mustache. But Harpo could speak, and Groucho often didn't have a mustache in real life. So they're appropriately series, and the naming convention I suggested was to preserve the film series without spawning more "films by actor" categories like the Adam Sandler one that was part of the group nomination. Hope that helps.--Mike Selinker 20:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Batman films are a series that carries forward the same character in a continuing story. The two Living Dead series (the Romero line and the O'Bannon line) are sequels set within the same fictional universes as the others of the series. The same can't be said for the films in these categories so the analogy doesn't hold. That the films have things in common doesn't make them a distinct genre. Otto4711 04:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• I tend to agree with Otto that these aren't series of sequels, but groups of films with the same actor(s), and that guideline and precedent tells us we don't usually do that. So Overturn & delete. >Radiant< 08:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• After all the reasons given, I do not think that the argument ILIKEIT is appropriate. If category Film Series is allowed to exists because of some reason, this deletion is creating an inconsistent hole in the overall categorization of Films. The above arguments of Batman carrying forward a character in a continuing story doesn't explain anything in terms of category usability. If usability is good enough for Batman, it is also good enough for Abbott and Costello. If Series is to follow, however, I would like to see a general plan on which these nominations take place (if a plan exists), so we can discuss it within WP Films and get some consensus. I also disagree with Films CfD's going on without prior notice in WP Films. Else consensus happens only between one group and disregards the opinion of another, which is also concerned. Hoverfish Talk 18:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• Deleting these categories does not create a hole in the Film Series categorization scheme for the simple reason that these are not film series. Your "as go Abbott and Costello so goes the Film Series category tree" concerns are unfounded, as there does not appear to be any move, organized or not, afoot to dismantle that tree. Indeed, these categories were not part of the Film Series category tree as the editor or editors who created them apparently correctly recognized that the films are not series. The parent cat was "Comedy films by actor" and it was housed under "Comedy films." The film series tree was not involved. Otto4711 19:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• I think I was clear on this point: I did not say it creates a hole in category Film Series, but in the overall category Films. Categories on Series, Sequels, etc, are of no more or less importance than Films by Actors or Performers, plus they are much more limited in scope. For example, see how many articles are under Abbott and Costello and how many are under Alien and Predator. Also the usability of both categories is of the same level. If the one is considered as cruft the other should be also considered as cruft by the same logic. Hoverfish Talk 20:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• My point exactly.--Mike Selinker 21:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• If it would make you feel better I can certainly look at the Alien and Predator category as well and nominate it if I don't think it's needed, but the point still stands that regardless of whether there's a category for Alien and Predator or for Batman or for any other film series, it is irrelevant to whether these categories should exist. The existence of one has no bearing on the existence of the other and any retention argument couched in terms of pointing at other categories is unpersuasive. Nor does the existence of a Film Series category tree have any relevance for the simple fact that, again, these are not film series. The desire of some people to keep these categories has led to the OR claim that they are, something which does not appear to be supported by independent scholarship. Otto4711 21:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn and relist individually We have here another case where a group listing was a disservice to common sense. The Marx brothers films are definitely a series with continuing characters; Adam Sandler's, not so. The close by the admin was not a bad one, but it is flawed by the nature of group listing itself. Xoloz 14:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist individually per Xoloz. I also wish to stress that my main concern is for the overall consequent categorization in Category:Films and not for feelings towards keeping this or doing away with that. I can be of help to the CfD process if I see a pattern emerge that covers my concern. For the moment I am responding to a fragmented pattern of nominations. I am confident we can find a way to make the whole process work optimally for all concerned. Hoverfish Talk 15:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse, a reasonable close considering the flawed nomination. Tim! 16:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Easy enough to say that the nomination was flawed. Harder I guess to name what policy or procedure under which that flaw supposedly exists. Otto4711 22:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse, closing nom accepted what appeared to be consensus for compromise. No prejudice against relisting individual categories. --After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 02:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Image:Andrewvandekamp.PNG (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|IfD)

I feel that the administrator interpreted the closing IfD for this image wrongly. The discussion here to me seemed to result in no consensus, if not keep. Instead the image was deleted with the edit summary, "per IfD". When I queried the admin, they stated they had deleted it because it was orphaned - however, it was only orphaned because Matthew kept taking it off of Andrew Van De Kamp and I was not prepared to edit war over an image that could be well have been deleted mere days later. Had this image been kept I would have immediately placed it back on Andrew's article. I therefore do not believe this to be a good reason for the deleting the image, and also considering the compelling arguments presented to keep the image on the IfD, ask that it be undeleted so it can be restored to Andrew's article. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn, reasonable confusion. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse. No rationale for keeping an orphaned, replacable fair-use image given here or at IFD. No fair-use rationale offered either. Deletion is the only reasonable outcome, and that's what we got. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
  • It was orphaned for the sake of discussion, and doesn't appear to be replaceable. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The image was orphaned because it was on IfD - it was not oprhaned before it was IfDed. I don't know why this could possibly be offered as a rationale for deletion given it is a self-fulfilling argument. If this image is kept, it will go straight back to the article for which it was originally uploaded under the Fair Use rules. Andrew is not a real person, so no free image will ever be found or made of him.

The Fair use Rationale is this:

Fair use for Andrew Van De Kamp

Though the picture is subject to copyright I feel it is covered by the U.S. fair use laws because:

1. it is readily available on the web at the official website, specifically for promotional purposes.
2. it does not limit the copyright owners rights to sell the film in any way
3. the image is provided at several official sources
4. it allows for identification of the character: Andrew Van De Kamp;
5. it is a low resolution image,
6. there are no public domain or free images that serve the same purpose,
7. it illustrates the point in question,

I just don't see how this is not acceptable as a Fair Use image. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't accept the rationale given for fair-use. Call me slapdash, but a picture of the actor would do just as well when all that we have is a thumbnail in an infobox. It's not like our article makes much of the picture anyway. It's just eye candy, so that seems to make it quite replaceable. Pyfrom is alive and well last I read, so a free image could be made and cropped if anyone cared to do so. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

A picture of the actor in some sort of free image (which would almost certainly be at an appearance of some sort) would not at all do just as well, as the picture would not depict the character. It's like saying if I took a picture of Michael Dorn if I saw him on the street, that would be useful in the article about Worf. --badlydrawnjeff talk 00:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

(keep edit conficting with Jeff)The article is of Andrew Van De Kamp, not Shaun Pyfrom (believe me, I have had this pointed out several times - I think it's even on the IfD). It would be inapparopriate to place an image of Shaun on Andrew's article, somewhat akin to placing an image of an identical twin on his other twin's article. Shaun looks little like his character when he is not filning so it would be horribly inaccurate anyway. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 00:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn: clearly there is some confusion here, and instead of making hasty decisions, we could afford to be supportive and kind, assume good intentions, and maybe all profit from this exchange. --MalcolmGin Talk / Conts 00:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Comment from deleting admin: Another reason for deletion was that this image is a .png, which is not the preferred format for photographs. There is a perfectly good .jpg image on the page now that contains the same information as the deleted image. It is nominated for deletion also but if there is one that is going to be kept, it should be the .jpg. -Nv8200p talk 02:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

If the image is undeleted I will happily convert it to .jpg and reupload it. But I can't while it is not there. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn, Admin has stated that "When I looked at the image it was an orphan" as the first sentence of reasoning to Dev920. As the image was removed due to it being at IFD during an attempt to achieve FA status, this should at a minimum be relisted to allow full discussion. --After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 03:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per consensus at IfD for deletion. Poor example of a character image. Matthew 09:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Mark Lind (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|AfD)

Closing admin admits mistake in closing prematurely; fails WP:MUSIC; only "keep" votes were SPAs or WP:ILIKEIT votes THF 00:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I confirm I made that statement. I don't think any further statement is necessary on my part. However, I do not think that it should be outright deleted without another AfD. But perhaps this deletion review will give a clearer consensus. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 01:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. Doesn't fail WP:MUSIC - among the information not presented in the AfD includes articles reviewing his band's album, an article about another band, and a number of Google News hits with some mentions for concert reviews. May have a valid issue with sources at the time of AfD, but the idea that they met WP:MUSIC ends up being valid. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Jeff, I'm really dumbfounded by this response, given the reason I put up the DRV is because you suggested it:For what it's worth, I wouldn't have voted keep there - there's nothing to indicate it meets WP:MUSIC. Mistakes are made, you know - why didn't you take the closure to deletion review? Were you trolling me? THF 11:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
    • No, I wasn't. I agreed with you there, and now that it's being reviewed, I looked into it and gave my response. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
      • Ok. I hope you understand my exasperation. In any event, WP:MUSIC excludes passing mentions in record reviews as evidence of notability. //THF 13:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
        • I'm not seeing that. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
          • I don't think that either of the sources alone would satisfy the general criteria of WP:MUSIC. That said, I would say that both articles do lend hand to satisfying criteria #6 of WP:MUSIC. So yeah, the article does appear to squeak by WP:MUSIC. Rockstar (^T/_C) 19:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure with no prejudice against relisting. I'm really not sure a review cuts it as far as notability per WP:MUSIC is concerned, but the other source leads me to believe that WP:MUSIC might be met anyway. There's really no consensus in the AFD when SPA !votes are discounted, but there are hardly any valid arguments, so relisting might be a good idea if more sources can't be found. --Coredesat 06:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure If you look past the single purpose account voting, the result was really a No consensus vote, and relisting may not be a bad idea, in theory, at least. He may meet WP:MUSIC according to the second source listed. As Coredesat points out above, there is a lack of valid arguments, so relisting to generate new/further consensus could work. --SunStar Net ^talk 17:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure per my comment above. But it sure would be nice to get some more reliable sources. Rockstar (^T/_C) 19:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure I agree per the discussions above. Relisting is warranted since there really wasn't enough meaningful discussion and better sources would rewl. --MalcolmGin Talk / Conts 00:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• KeepSISLEY 17:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Despair (band) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|AfD)

It's obvious from last.fm's Despair page history that I made this edit on last.fm myself. More than that, all user-contributed content on last.fm pages is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License. If somebody were able to find http://www.last.fm/music/Despair/+wiki page, they should be able to read GFDL notice on it. Serguei Trouchelle 13:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn per nom. Logical mistake, easy to correct. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Question. I actually deleted the article and I did check the source site, which has this: "© 2002 – 2007 Last.fm Ltd." in the lower left hand corner. I did not see any notice about a copyleft license - where is it? Natalie 14:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
  • On the Despair/+wiki link above: " Artist descriptions on Last.fm are editable by everyone. Feel free to contribute! / All user-contributed content on this page is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License." --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
    • That text only seems to appear if you are signed in, easy to miss. --pgk 19:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and credit Well, I couldn't see the text jeff quoted, but here they say "All submitted content remains copyright of the author, and is licensed under the GFDL." However, under the GFDL, this content needed to be cited to its original source, which means that we need to cite the authorship history at that site in order to comply with the GFDL ourselves. GRBerry 15:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm the one who made this additions to last.fm and wikipedia, they are almost identical. This case is not a copy, but further thoughts about using GFDL texts from last.fm can be useful. -- Serguei Trouchelle 17:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, your username is certainly identical to the name at that site, but you are a person, not a username, and we have no proof of the two usernames being the same person. Better to credit history to be safe. GRBerry 17:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment looks a classic case of a bit of discussion with the deleting admin could have resolved. When restored I'm not sure the article gives much indication of notability and requires some sourcing, so I would suggest a bit of work (probably not much) will be needed if it isn't going to be deleted again shortly (not by me I hasten to add). --pgk 18:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
  • FWIW, the article asserts an international tour, which should absolve it of any A7 attempts. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
    • I guess I missed that, I saw the 3 albums (but no mention of label) and one of the members being a blue link, both of which may mean they meet WP:BAND, but without looking closer wasn't certain. Lack of sourcing and making any assertion clearer are the main concerns. --pgk 18:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)