Talk:Delphi

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 Delphi was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: December 22, 2007
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Contents

[edit] Ethylene?

This is just a note, but there have been convincing theories that the vapors the oracles inhaled consisted mainly of ethylene, a common hydrocarbon gas that was found in the petro-chemical rich layers of sediment surrounding Delphi. Ethylene, more potent and flammable than nitrous oxide (laughing gas), when inhaled in moderation can produce a trancelike state. the gas could have risen through fissures created by the many intersecting fault lines that run through the site.

Also, during the last years of Delphi's significance there were reports of a major earthquake that shook the region, which may have played a factor in the vapor being suddenly closed off or redirected somewhere else. That would explain why a short while later the oracle pronounced that Delphi was no longer a medium for prophecies. The general mindset is that the oracle was bribed to discredit the site, mainly because of the rise of Christianity.

from jordan schuetz

Interesting - if you have some journal papers to cite, they would be great additions. Stan 05:57, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

YO scientific american recnetly provided storng evideince for the cuz of the fumes, someone should reference this.

The ethylene research is now covered in detail at Pythia. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Delphic "Sibyl"?

We have a new editor who, working backwards from Thomas Bulfinch and (perhaps) echoing some Latin Christian sources, assumes that the priestess in any Greek oracle is a "sibyl". I think this is incorrect. --Wetman 05:12, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I too propose to replace "Sibyl" with "Pythia"

... unless this is a trick to awaken her :-)

Sibyls: the Cumaean Sibyl and the Erythraean Sibyl:

[1]

The Pythia was the priestess at Apollo's oracle in Delphi.

[2]

[3]

--Odysses 15:41, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Sibyls: the Cumaean Sibyl and the Erythraean Sibyl:
"In ancient times a prophetess who, in a state of ecstasy and under influence of Apollo, prophesized without being consulted. Famous Sibyls are the Cumaean Sibyl and the Erythraean Sibyl, who revealed to Alexander the Great his divine descent. The Cumaean Sibyl owned, according to tradition, nine books of prophecies, which she sold the remaining three to the Roman king Tarquin."Micha F. Lindemans at Pantheon.org
Lindemans would place the Erythraean Sibyl at the oasis of Ammon in Egypt's Western Desert, where Alexander consulted the oracle about his divine birth. I don't think that identification is made by any of Alexander's biographers. Let's not add to the confusion. Can we stick to drawing some simple conclusions from ancient references? --Wetman 17:23, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have moved the reference to Delphic Sibyl to "See also". This error is repeatedly reintroduced in this article. Are US public school children still beginning with Bulfinch?


Besides, two more names relevant to Pythia , that shouldn't be ignored:


Pythian Games - Held at Delphi, second only to the Olympic Games

Pythagoras Pyth-agoras - His name was relevant to Pythia and Delphi oracle. --Odysses 18:12, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Earthquakes, Archaeology and Modern Delphi

I used to have a couple of books on Delphi but unfortunately, I gave them away a couple of months ago. From what I remember, there was a modern town (name escapes me) built directly over the archaeological site. When it was discovered that ancient Delphi was under there, the archaeologists wanted to excavate but the people of the town weren't keen to move - until an earthquake caused major damage. At that point, the town was relocated to where Delphi is today and excavations began. Anyway, a bit of information about the excavations might be nice.

Other info it might be good to add:

  • The restoration of the Treasury of the Athenians was funded by modern Athens.
  • The Sphinx of Naxos.
  • What's the population of the modern town of Delphi? From what I remember, it was under 1000 in the Classical period and is still about the same size.

I'm just brainstorming from memory here. - AdelaMae 14:43, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

this is from a visitor to Delphi, there is now no town and no sign of any town at any time

at Delphi... so all the above is pure you know what /x/ apollo 75.60.111.189 (talk) 08:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

What is/are the correct pronunciation(s) of this word? My dictionary says that it ends with a long I sound, but I've also heard it as ending with a long E sound. Is one the English version and the other the Greek version? In any event, this should be addressed on the page. Suburban 16:59, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect link

Currently, in section "Famous Oracular Statements from Delphi", there is a linked to "Ionian", which is a redirect to "Ionic". Presumably, this should link to one of "Ionian Islands", "Ionians", or "Ionia", but I am not sure which would be most appropriate. -- Centrx 01:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

This section was moved to Famous Oracular Statements from Delphi, where I have simply unlinked the word in question, "Ionian". -- Centrx 19:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Famous oracular statements

The "Famous oracular statements" section is huge and unbalances the article. There's enough material to make a separate article, which I think might be a good idea; alternatively, I'd like to move the bulk of the oracular statements to the Pythia article while leaving a few responses here on the Delphi article. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Akhilleus, I have moved them to another article called Famous Oracular Statements from Delphi
As a new article it is still a stub, lacking references and much else. Any help gratefully received.
Regards John D. Croft

[edit] Removed material from Pythia

I removed the following sentences from Pythia, since they belong here:

The fame and wealth of the Oracle were enormous, and as grateful states and kingdoms came to establish treasuries in the vicinity, the temple came to function as a kind of central bank of ancient Greece, making loans for special projects. The site was also justly famous for its many works of art gathered over centuries, presented by grateful supplicants.

This doesn't fit in Pythia because these dedications and treasuries belonged to the sanctuary as a whole, not specifically to the oracle. However, at the moment there's no natural place to put them. I think a reorganization is in order; there needs to be a section that covers the entire temenos of Apollo; then the temple, altar, treasuries, and statuary can be subsections of that section. There can be another section on the temenos of Athena Pronaia (where the Tholos is), and other sections on the gymnasium and houses, if someone wants to put them in. --Akhilleus (talk) 07:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source of Oracle Authority

I would appeciate some discussion in the article of the actual source of the oracle's wisdom. Herodotus reports of people going off to found colonies based on an oracle. This is a huge commitment to make.

Are there any clues in the literature that would indicate where the oracle got her preferences regarding national politics and immigration?

My inclination is to suspect some person behind the oracle...some person that thinks there *ought* to be a Greek colony on the coast of Libya...which leads to a prophecy telling so-and-so to go found a colony. But as I read Heodotus, there is not the first hint of cynicism around the veracity of the oracle.

Bob Goethe 68.148.176.63 01:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

In the Discovery Channels "Seven Wonders of Ancient Greece", the Oracle, the Pythia, gained her powers due to a fault line below the site. A Greek statesmen thus built the sanctuary on top of the fault line to effectively sell her wisdom in return for status and wealth. The Pythias 'rants and raves' were interpreted by the male Priests, therefore it was their preferences regarding national politics and immigration were. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.152.254 (talk) 13:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing paragraph

In this article, under the treasuries subheading, there is this paragraph: "The most impressive is the now-restored Treasury of Athens, built to commemorate the Athenians' victory at the Battle of Marathon. The Athenians had previously been given the advice by the oracle to put their faith in their "wooden walls" — taking this advice to mean their navy, they won a famous battle at Salamis."

I understand that the treasury of Athens commemorates the Battle of Marathon, but what does the treasury have to do with the battle of Salamis which occured 10 years later? My knowledge of greek history is not great, so if I've missed something, could someone please explain it to me. 138.38.32.84 17:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] City/State Government

How was the city governed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.112.140.20 (talk) 02:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

The sanctuary itself was administered by the Amphictyonic Council, the neighbouring and more important Greek states had representatives on the committee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.152.254 (talk) 13:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pythian redirect

Why does the link for Pythian in the wiki entry for "List of technology companies in Ottawa, Canada" redirect here? The two topics are unrelated, as Pythian is a technology solutions provider, not an archaeological site. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Keenada (talk • contribs) 18:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Dates

Someone has changed all dates from BCE to BC. BC stands for "Before Christ" and implies all readers are Christian. Non Christian; Jewish, Muslim and Buddhist, readers do not accept Christ, but they will accept that BCE standing for "Before Common Era" can be used as a daing system. Wikipedia has a policy of accepting either dating system, but suggests people remain by the convention in which the article was originally written. Whoever it was please revert to the original system immediately. Thanks John D. Croft 16:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

BC/AD was the first system used in this article; see [4] (from September 2002) and [5] (from May 2005). --Akhilleus (talk) 16:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Omphalos

I think that a small section pointing out that Delphi was the site of the traditional Greek omphalos, which I believe they considered the centre of the universe or something akin to it, would be helpful. I came to this article looking for info on the omphalos, and couldn't find it by using this page. Thanks. Dissimul 01:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

the oracle of delphi is in the back of the temple of Apollo at Delphi and that was / is the

location of the omphalos but drilling down deeper, that means via Apollo, there was a connection to the center of the universe, as Greek seerers saw that, with Apollo being a son of God; drilling deeper still, Apollo is the same son of God many are familiar with that will be on earth in the 2nd coming AND did visit the temple of Apollo Jan 1971 so consummating their seerers correct view point of the center of the universe, omphalos connection via Apollos / Christ now in the 2nd Coming .../s/ lil ompha jr IV 75.60.111.189 (talk) 08:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

see note 8 to the main article and its discussion of Omphalos as follows:

<<"Another very archaic feature at Delphi also confirms the ancient associations of the place with the Earth goddess. This was the Omphalos, an egg-shaped stone which was situated in the innermost sanctuary of the temple in historic times. Classical legend asserted that it marked the 'navel' (Omphalos) or centre of the Earth and explained that this spot was determined by Zeus who had released two eagles to fly from opposite sides of the earth and that they had met exactly over this place". On p.7 he writes further, "So Delphi was originally devoted to the worship of the Earth goddess whom the Greeks called Ge, or Gaia (mythology). Themis, who is associated with her in tradition as her daughter and partner or successor, is really another manifestation of the same deity: an identity which Aeschylus himself recognized in another context. The worship of these two, as one or distinguished, was displaced by the introduction of Apollo. His origin has been the subject of much learned controversy: it is sufficient for our purpose to take him as the Homeric Hymn represents him -- a northern intruder -- and his arrival must have occurred in the dark interval between Mycenaean and Hellenic times. His conflict with Ge for the possession of the cult site was represented under the legend of his slaying the serpent.">> ...

what these old myths are attempting to convey to those "seekers" are stories that are steps in the pathway to not only enlightenment but also deificiation as above mention of "Apollo ... slaying the serpent." - A FINAL step in deification, whereby the earthly applicant is permanently hooked to all creation and so God... /s/ hic haec hokie, ompha ompha diddlely do , i saw some archeo's coming fa yu ! 75.60.111.189 (talk) 08:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Move request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Result: page remains at Delphi. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Delphi (disambiguation) demonstrates other notable articles using the term delphi. I think page should be moved to Delphi, Greece as per standard disambiguation practices. -- Cat chi? 10:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose. I don't agree - Sthenel 11:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The Greek city is by far the most common use. --Akhilleus (talk) 13:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Notable not only because of the Greek city itself as an archaeological site today, but also because of the oracle that made it famous, especially in academia and in classical antiquity studies. NikoSilver 19:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] GAN

GA review (see here for criteria)

This is a nice piece of work, but it still has some shortcomings with respect to the good article criteria.

  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
    Introduction well written, and describes Delphi but not all the sections of the article. Some sections are very short.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    The sources are not sufficient to cover several uncited sections and population statistics. Source at citation 12 has disappeared from the internet
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    Placed article on hold. Good luck improving the article
  • Can a picture of modern Delphi be added to the article?
  • Is the video tour of Delphi not protected under copyright law?SriMesh | talk 05:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)