Talk:Deletionism and inclusionism in Wikipedia

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 2008-01-23. The result of the discussion was keep.

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[edit] COI/SYN

As requested, I {{COI}}-tagged the article because on of the primary contributors is self-labeled inclusionist. Since {{SYN}} is subjective, we'll let the AfD sort that out, but since there is only one scholarly article on the subject (waaaaay down at the bottom, and the article only mentions it as part of the greater whole), this is very much a synthesis of ideas per WP:OR, since the rest of the media coverage is over outrage'n'spectacle surrounding deletion of specific articles— not deletionism/inclusionism itself. --slakr\ talk / 01:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

While it's reasonable to suspect that Tarinth's inclusionist bias would affect the article, it's clear that the criticism section is only about criticism of the distinction itself, not either side. Each side's arguments are presented symmetrically, which is a pretty hard way to support a point. There should be a stronger basis for COI tagging.
Some sources describe specific deletions; others use such examples to discuss the positions broadly. –Pomte 01:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
While my own stance on inclusion versus deletionism is transparent, this isn't a "position piece" that takes any side on the subject--it merely deals with the fact that such a controversy exists (for comparison, consider that most contributors to Christianity are Christians or that Evolution has substantial contributions by biologists; labelling those articles as COI would be absurd). Furthermore, a COI tag tends to prejudice readers negatively, which is particularly sensitive during an AfD. Considering the article has been extensively edited and improved since its original creation, I've removed the COI tag. (I'll also note that I located a source that cast the controversy as a potential positive, and there's certainly ample opportunity for editors to locate more such content in the future, should they exist). If you believe there's any bias within the article--and I'll readily admit that it's possible I could have a "blinder" in some respect--then please feel free to improve the article as you see fit... but I don't believe there's any bias that necessitates a heavy-handed and prejudicial label being applied to the article as a whole. Tarinth (talk) 04:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Note that "only one scholarly article on the subject" is no longer true. –Pomte 17:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

I've added a couple photo captions to the article, but it still needs a lead caption. Any suggestions? Tarinth (talk) 13:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

More relevant images would be screenshots of deletion debates, like how they are displayed in the research articles. –Pomte 17:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rename

If kept, the article will need to be renamed. In the very least, 'Controversy' shouldn't be capitalized. But this phenomenon isn't really a controversy; it's a distinction between two factions that debate on controversial subjects, but that itself isn't controversial. The scope now is Deletionism and inclusionism in Wikipedia, or Inclusionism and deletionism in Wikipedia until we find sources for other wikis. –Pomte 22:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Your naming suggestion seems fine to me, particularly since the scope of the article has expanded since it was originally written. I don't have a preference for either of your options (flip a coin). Whichever article doesn't become the main article, the other name should also be created and contain a redirect. Tarinth (talk) 22:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wiki "spirit"

I'm missing one major argument from the "criticism" section, namely that a page deletion is unlike any other action (creation, edit, reversion, etc.) in that it breaks the history, is not reversable or even reviewable because the page including meta-information is lost. IMHO that's a fairly major, non-POV argument that should be included, but I don't want to start an edit-war, so I'm asking here first what others think. --.Tom. (talk) 22:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

One of the sources makes it sound like the thing is gone forever and people necessarily have to start from scratch, but it's not true as the edit history is not lost. Reversible by admins, reviewable at WP:DRV. –Pomte 23:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Straying from the topic slightly, that's exactly why I think the use of the word 'delete' in Wikipedia is misleading.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 19:27, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Um, wow...

I only just discovered this article existed. Is it not the biggest ever violation of Wikipedia:Avoid self-references? Not to mention the fact that it essentially consists of a synthesis of already published material - more like a collection of trivia than an encyclopaedic article. I'm amazed and deeply disappointed that this article somehow passed AFD, and to me it seems to cross a very dangerous line, taking us down the road towards ever-increasing focus on Wikipedia itself in Wikipedia articles, and the gradual obliteration of the distinction between article-space and Wikipedia-space. This belongs in the latter, not the former.

...But then, I am a deletionist myself. I guess I would think that, wouldn't I? Terraxos (talk) 03:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

As an aside, here's the kind of thing we risk by allowing articles like this to exist: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Elephant (wikipedia article). Judging from this precedent, it's only a matter of time before someone creates Mzoli's Meats (Wikipedia article); after all, the Wikipedia article is at least as notable as the restaurant itself, if not more so. The same reasoning could be used for Jordanhill Railway Station (Wikipedia article). Terraxos (talk) 03:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, if you're reading this, please don't actually create these articles! :) Terraxos (talk) 03:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
  • You may want to read the AfD on this article, which closed as Keep. All of the issues you raise, especially WP:ASR and WP:SYNTH, were considered and rejected. Elephant (wikipedia article) was moved to userspace because there was not an adequate demonstration that the subject of the Elephant article being notable. The subject of Deletionism and Inclusionism in Wikipedia is a subject that has been covered by dozens of reliable and verifiable sources in national and international media. Given that this subject has been pretty clearly settled, it's disappointing that we find it so difficult to accept the settled consensus on the issue. Alansohn (talk) 04:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
LOL. Whether you're serious or not, that's hilarious. ^_^ Kasreyn (talk) 21:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Destruction of intellectual property

Administrators like nothing better than waiting around until an article has cooled off and nobody is looking, then deleting many hours x people x bytes worth of work for not meeting criteria 57 paragraph 32 of fine print rule 3.

Only years later there is the slight chance the destruction is discovered, when somebody just happens to create an article of the exact same name and sees the note left behind and goes further and wants to see the carcass. Jidanni (talk) 06:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Add "surgeon general's notice" to deletionists' favorite templates

The deletionists' favorite templates should have a tiny legal notice added to them linking to Inclusionist ombudsman groups. Sort of "you have the right to a lawyer". Else all one sees are the prison guards as one's article is dragged off to the gas chamber. Jidanni (talk) 21:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Circularity

At some point someone's going to come around and say that this article is a cause of newspeople writing stuff about deletionism and inclusionism in Wikipedia, which strengthens the argument for the inclusion of this article. Well, that's a good thing, right? –Pomte 23:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deletionism and inclusionism in the news

The battle for Wikipedia's soul

If there's more news about this subject, you might want to add another paragraph in the article itself.--82.93.172.114 (talk) 08:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fisherman or Traffic Cop

Erin McKean argued very nicely why she prefers to be a fisherman (inclusionist) and not a traffic cop (deletionist) in the dictionary business. It's not inclusionism/deletionism per se, but I think the discussion over which words to include and which words to omit from a dictionary parallels this discussion, or at least concerns it. See her exuberant talk here: http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/161 89.138.134.254 (talk) 22:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)



I'm not going to edit this page without a safety helmet and a baseball bat, but I have to ask: Why is Wikipedia elaborating on what Wikipedia is in the first paragraph? I think we can safely assume that almost anyone who's reading this article can guess what Wikipedia is, or at the very least they can click the self-referencing link to find out. The site name, the logo in the corner, the multiple links in the sidebar...it's pretty hard to miss. GrifterMage (talk) 19:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Articles are generally written with independent context as appropriate, so the subject can be learned without much clicking away from the actual article. Someone could be reading this article elsewhere. –Pomte 18:54, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How to read deleted articles

a. What hints, tips and pointers are there for reading deleted articles?...
b. How can deleted articles be archived for interested researchers?...
--the zak 1 April 2008

Only admins can read deleted articles, but you can ask them to provide a copy for you. –Pomte 12:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

How do they read deleted articles?...
--the zak

There's a description at Wikipedia:New admin school/Viewing deleted pages. –Pomte 05:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
The short answer is to become an admin. Might take a bit of work, though. Richard001 (talk) 04:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 'Notable inclusionists' section

I see this has been tagged with a 'POV' template. I don't know what the concern of the tagger was, but it occurred to me: is it POV to have a 'Notable inclusionists' section without having a 'notable deletionists' one as well? The problem being, of course, that there are no notable deletionists... at least, in contrast to the several commentators on Wikipedia who self-identify as inclusionists, I'm not aware of any public figure prepared to call themselves a deletionist. (Perhaps this is because 'deletionist' is more of a pejorative term; or perhaps it's because anyone notable enough to have a biography on Wikipedia would tend to want such articles to be kept.) Does anyone think this is a problem, or is it fine the way it is? Terraxos (talk) 02:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

That is precisely the concern. The section began as "Notable inclusionists and deletionists", but since I found no notable deletionists, I renamed it after the POV tagging. I think the article is neutral in this regard, but having the tag doesn't really damage it. –Pomte 18:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Links to inclusionist wikis?

At wp:OTRS we get a lot of angry emails from the likes of new garage bands and webcomic writers about verifiability and notability, and I was wondering if we can include some external links to this article (other than wikia which can cause even more death threats) of sites that aren't encyclopedias, like

A short list of the best such sites can then also be used when replying to the emails. -- Jeandré, 2008-04-13t15:59z

I think this is an excellent idea. It would help get the crummy stubs like Intrada off of Wikipedia and onto a site that would welcome and promote them. - Fawn Lake (talk) 03:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why is this an article?

Seriously, we delete Wikipedia community and allow an article on some trivial little subtopic of the Wikipedia community to stand? This is absurd. Surely you don't leave big hierarchical gaps like that. An article on the authorship and administration of Wikipedia would be nice, if it is notable enough. It was deleted. And yet we keep this? Richard001 (talk) 04:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't deleted. It looks like it was merged; probably into Wikipedia. Might be a gap you want to fill in, or maybe it's covered sufficiently in the main WP article. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
It's certainly a gap. There are dozens of things like this that an article on the Wikipedia community (or as I've suggested, the broader topic of authorship and administration of Wikipedia) could cover. Not having such an article is certainly an inconsistency that needs rectifying. That it was redirected and not deleted seems to me a matter of technicality. I'm not going to attempt to write such an article myself, but if we are to keep this I think we should certainly have one. Richard001 (talk) 05:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Someone will write it someday, and probably soon. The difference between redirection and deletion is big because the first is done by one user based on their own opinion and the second is based on a consensus seeking group decision. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
This is definitely a notable subject, perhaps one of the most notable aspects of Wikipedia policy debates, not to mention one of the most divisive and intractable. Especially now that it has appeared in The Economist and other mainstream publications, it clearly belongs here. Chin Chill-A Eat Mor Rodents (talk) 19:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Consumer Cellular

How do you read an article such as it is, before it got deleted?... for Consumer Cellular -- the zak (talk) 03:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

You have to ask an admin to do it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 16:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
You can see archived articles at sites like Deletionpedia and Internet Archive. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)