Talk:Delaware Valley

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[edit] Map

Can someone who lives in the Delaware Valley provide a map, please? Eric Forste 00:52, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Northeastern Delaware Valley

I left in a note at the end of the first part of this article noting that "Delaware Valley" is also used for a small region in the northeastern corner of PA. If this could somehow be expanded that would be good.

[edit] Unofficial "Metropolitan Areas" vs. Metropolitan Statistical Areas

We shouldn't confuse unofficial and vague ideas of metropolitan areas with specific census-defined Metropolitan Statistical Areas. The Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City Consolidated Metropolitan Statistical Area is a group of counties defined by the U.S. Census to exist. This is what is discussed in this article. The "Delaware Valley" is a vague term used unofficially. There is no reason to suggest that it is identical to the Census Bureau's Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City Consolidated Metropolitan Area. For instance, I doubt most people would recognize Cecil County, Maryland or Cape May County, New Jersey as part of the "Delaware Valley," even if they are part of the Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City Consolidated Metropolitan Area. We need to stop acting as though the areas defined by the census area are an NPOV description of metropolitan areas in the US. For instance, the Washington-Baltimore CMSA is ridiculously huge, including almost entirely rural counties as far out as West Virginia or Maryland's Eastern Shore. Many have suggested that this definition is largely done in order to lower the government's cost of living assessments for federal workers by including lots of cheap, rural areas in the metropolitan area where so many federal employees live. I think we need to get our acts together on this. john k 04:20, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • I've heard that theory but I don't believe it. There's a mathematical formula, mostly related to commuting, that determines what goes in which MSA. That's why Trenton is in the New York metro... NY/North Jersey's job market is a lot stronger than Philly's, so more people commute in that direction. It's not some diabolical plan to screw people over. It's fairly scientific, and commute patterns change w/ every census, which is why the metro areas change as well. Passdoubt | Talk 19:39, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
    • The Bureau of the Census does not always follow its rules where they may involve Federal employees. Mercer County, NJ, had historically been included in what had been known as the Philadelphia-Wilmington-Trenton, PA-NJ-DE-MD CMSA, because the commuting patterns are as strong between Mercer County and Philadelphia as they are between it and New York (historical trivia: Princeton University is located in the county precisely because it is halfway between the two cities) AND most of the major metropolitan media that cover Trenton are located in Philadelphia, not NYC (the Philadelphia TV stations maintain Trenton bureaus but not the New York TV stations, for instance); Trenton was moved from one to the other not because of any major shift in commuting patterns but because the cost of living adjustment for Federal employees is higher for the New York CMSA than for the Philadelphia CMSA. (A similar case of the bureau not following its rules involves the CSA that should be called Baltimore-Washington but is called Washington-Baltimore, a clear violation of bureau policy that names multicentric CSAs and MSAs in declining order of central city populations; Baltimore is the bigger of the two.) The shift was made solely to give Federal employees working in Mercer County a pay raise without special legislation. However, the theory cited above is not correct, I think; for a county to be included in a metropolitan area, a certain percentage of its residents must commute to work in one of the counties that currently comprise it. (Leavenworth County, Kansas, had NOT been part of the Kansas City, MO-KS, MSA for many years because of this rule; most county residents work at the large Federal prison or Army base within the county's boundaries.) Marketstel (talk) 06:55, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


The CSA defined in the article is not consistent with the US Census definition. Cape May, Atlantic City, ane Mercer counties are not included in the Census definition. Polaron 03:08, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clarifications?

I was going to clean the top of this article up a bit, but I found I didn't really know how to. What's with that first sentence? I'm not even sure what it's trying to say with the state's linked up together like that. What's a CSA? Also, what's the source for the population figures added on October 18, 2005?

Monmouth County should not be included in the growing areas list at all. Only a small section of Monmouth borders Burlington and most of the developed areas are bona fide New York City suburbs (via the North Jersey Coast Line train) that are much closer to New York than Philly. Monmouth is also adjacent to Queens County, NY, so there really is no way you can consider Monmouth anywhere close to Philly. Ocean County is a little tricker, but since it's part of the New York metro area for now, I would hesitate to include the county on the list. New York is growing rapidly as well, so I don't think it's likely Philly can displace New York for Ocean in the foreseeable future. Jps57 (talk) 15:07, 8 December 2007 (UTC)jps57

[edit] suburbs

Should it be noted that the suburbs less than 10000 list overlaps with the suburbs more than 10000 list? (Example: Cornwells Heights is in Bensalem Township, Trevose is in both Bensalem and Lower Southampton Township), etc. ?

[edit] New TV/Radio table?

Any reactions/suggestions (regestions) for an addition with TV/Radio table in this article? Possible titles include "Media" or "Television and Radio" Bill D 15:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Television

Channel Callsign Affiliation Format Ident
3 KYW CBS Air, DT CBS3 Logo
6 WPVI ABC Air, DT 6ABC Logo
10 WCAU NBC Air, DT NBC10 Logo
29 WTXF Fox air,DT FOX23 Logo

}


[edit] Combined Statistical Area redefinition

See this OMB bulletin. The Reading Metropolitan Statistical Area is now part of the Philadelphia-Camden-Vineland CSA. --Polaron | Talk 01:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I adjusted the map accordingly. Kmusser 12:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed move

I would like to suggest that this article be moved to a more formal name. "Delaware Valley" should be a geographical article. Some possible names this could be moved to:

The rest of these should probably be redirects to the new name. Thoughts? --ChrisRuvolo (t) 12:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Probably not a bad idea, but note that the first of these already exists. I'd want to look at it before determining what needs to be done with this one.

But even if this article gets renamed, there should be a section within it on the term "Delaware Valley," as it is widely used to refer to Greater Philadelphia. It's even in the name of the region's metropolitan planning organization (MPO), the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission.Marketstel (talk) 19:07, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] lexical origin - question

I remember reading when I was young that the term originated with WPVI, which still uses it. If true, that would mean KYW would eschew its use because of its origination by a competitor ... Any thoughts? Corraboration? PennaBoy 02:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Counties Around Philly Area REMOVED, justification below

I have eliminated the counties around the Delaware Valley section. If counties are added by the census, they should be listed. Speculation is worthless. The whole section seemed to imply the reach of the Philadelphia area is greater than it actually is. There is fast growth in many areas, the New York City area in particular, but that is irrelevant. The point is that we have no idea how an area will grow or constrict IN THE FUTURE. You cannot assume future growth from present growth, nor can you assume where that growth will reach. There are still undeveloped areas in Burlington and Gloucester county, for example. I hate to be mean, but that whole section (originally "adjacent" to area section) demonstrates the persistent inferiority complex of those in the Philly area have to New York City. Monmouth county, a county that borders Queens County, NY. Please. As a person who formerly lived in South Jersey and now lives in North Jersey, let me say that this complex is totally unnecessary. The Philly area is pretty nice and distinct from the New York City area. DO NOT EXAGGERATE THIS ARTICLE to include what does not deserve to be there. No articles on wikipedia, for that matter, should be speculative. Be objective people. Jps57 (talk) 03:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)jps57

[edit] Terminology and regional identity

I'm not certain that the term originated with WPVI-TV, but your story does jibe with something I've heard, PennaBoy -- it was coined by a local media outlet that wanted to distinguish itself from another outlet that used the more traditional construction "Greater Philadelphia". "Greater [core city name]" is a far more common phrase used to refer to a large city and its suburban region, but the historical animosity between the city of Philadelphia and its suburbs probably helped contribute to the widespread adoption of "Delaware Valley" over "Greater Philadelphia". In that respect, Philadelphia is almost unique in having a term that omits any mention of the core city commonly used to refer to the metro; the only other widely used term I am familiar with of this type is "Twin Cities" for Minneapolis-St. Paul, but that term is used because the two core cities are roughly equal in size and importance. Saying "Delaware Valley" is "the name" for the region is IMO therefore inaccurate; calling the phrase a "commonly used term" or even "widely used term" is a more neutral description and therefore should be used here. Marketstel (talk) 06:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your assertions. I was very surprised upon coming here that the Philadelphia Metro Area is called "Delaware Valley." I mean, if anything, that implies in the importance of Delaware. And while Delaware is part of the Philadelphia region, not mentioning the major city is very strange. I don't even think "Greater" would work because that usually refers to counties on the outer fringe of the metropolitan region, places that are far away but still identify with the core city. Northampton and Lehigh counties, for example, come to mind when I hear "greater." "Greater" in Philadelphia can also refer to counties that are divided between two metro areas, such as Ocean County, NJ and Mercer County, NJ. I think the word "metropolitan" is enough. Metropolitan definitely does not imply a single city. To completely change a region's name based on differences between the city and suburbs is IMO childish. That alleged conflict can easily be fleshed out in the metro area's article, or settled in another article about the alleged conflict. I don't want to go through the hassle of changing the nomenclature, but if Marketstel does do that, I will support him in his efforts. Jps57 (talk) 01:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)jps57

Thank you, and thank you for your more recent revisions. About the place of Mercer County in the New York/Philadelphia regions: It is true that the county is indeed split between the New York and Philadelphia spheres of influence, and (as I think I noted above) Princeton University is located where it is because the New York and Philadelphia Presbyteries of the Presbyterian Church both wanted to establish a college and chose a location equidistant between the two cities. However, while the Census Bureau has indeed moved Mercer County out of the Philadelphia CSA and into the New York CSA, the county remains in the Philadelphia DMA (Dominant Media Area), a fact further reinforced by the presence of Trenton bureaus for WPVI-TV (the other three major Philadelphia network TV stations maintain no bureaus that I am aware of) but no New York TV stations. I do intend to revise this article -- which really needs a lot more work than I can do at one sitting -- to reflect this. Marketstel (talk) 18:08, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

One further comment, perhaps a bit nit-picky: I'd always understood the construction "Greater [city name]" to refer to the region that includes the named core city and its suburban hinterlands. For instance, where I grew up, "Greater Kansas City" encompassed the core city's home county (Jackson in Missouri) plus Clay and Platte counties in Missouri and Johnson and Wyandotte counties in Kansas (the city's suburbs and the adjacent city of Kansas City, Kansas). It's since grown to encompass several more counties in both states. Marketstel (talk) 18:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)